Let me just first say as a feminist that sexual objectification is always dubious, and also that I’m not promoting the idea that men adopt feminist rhetoric to get laid, but… do these men look cute in their t-shirts or what?
Good post at Wo! on men in the feminism movement (and credit to Wo! for the photo above), which I shouldn’t reduce to an exercise in objectification, that is really wrong, and you shouldn’t encourage me, that is also really wrong. The issue of where men fit into feminism has been discussed quite a bit lately in the blogosphere. Here are some places. Hoyden About Town on the motivations behind men supporting feminism, does it have to involve self-interest? I Blame the Patriarchy on this same issue. And here at Feminism 101 with a good round up of some blogs posting on ”but what about the men?”.
Sometime in the last month I also came across a relevant post at either Feministe or Feministing and I can’t for the life of me find it now but then I am searching for it in between tending to my daughter with her stomach bug, so if you’re a regular reader of these blogs and you know which post I’m referring to then please tell me. (Maybe I dreamt it).
Anyway, from memory the post had a lot of comments debating whether if feminism is about equality can men lead the feminist movement. Equal opportunity and all that. So for example, some men in their comments were advocating men heading up the National Organisation for Women and Ms. Magazine. Yes really. I was a little surprised that a group of feminists were being so reasonable about such a ridiculous question. I do think there is a place for men in feminism, a very important place; men have a lot to offer the movement, in fact they can bring some things that women can’t bring to the movement (like the power of men confronting other men over their sexist behaviour).. and they do have a lot to personally gain from loosening the grip of the patriarchy on all of us even if you don’t count the pleasure of seeing life improve for their mothers and sisters and daughters and girlfriends. But I think it is a real symptom of socialized female behaviour that some feminists feel we have to be inclusive and non-threatening at all times, to the point of entertaining the idea that men could and should have an opportunity to lead the feminist movement.
Maybe its also a bit about heterosexuality, those of us of this persuasion don’t want to deter feminist men because they’re our favourite kind of men, and maybe some of us also want their approval? I can find radical lesbian feminist commentaries a little difficult at times, the issues are all very black and white in their discussions but for me areas involving men can be tinged with grey and I need to do a little more work to sort through it and reconcile it with my feminism. (This might especially be the case for feminist mothers raising sons?) But there is a certain clarity that radical lesbian feminists can provide, free as they are of the continual need to make peace with the males of the species. This discussion about whether men can lead the feminist movement badly needed some of the wry wit and lets-cut-the-crap logic of those lovely radical lesbian feminists. If I’d spent a bit more time visiting that post then I could have made the comment myself, or at least remembered the post better for reference here.
I’ve seen a lot of interest recently in feminism from men (including the possibility of forming a feminist fathers’ group – oh the utopian visions this inspires in me), and none of these men have raised the idea with me of them having more opportunity for leadership. Though I haven’t discussed it personally with men I think I can understand where this notion is coming from, in part from a lack of understanding of male privilege and in part from an urgent desire in women not to have conflict. But feminists, there is something equally as or more damaging than conflict to a movement, there is dilution. I can support civil rights movements, know that I gain from their empowerment, feel solidarity with them, and still not have to be in charge of their movement to feel a part of it. To want anything else for me is the very definition of white privilege and entitlement. Whatever personal definition you have of feminism, women are central to it and I think a first step in feminism is getting comfortable with that priority.
Hear hear. I love this post.
Wanting to be at the centre of everything is the epitome of privilege and entitlement. And the wounded whinges and veiled (or not so veiled) I’m-taking-my-bat-and-ball-home threats when such a thing is pointed out just underscore the point.
Men running NOW? That kinda makes me want to bang my head on my desk. But I admit I have a seperatist streak in me so something like that would never appeal to me. Yuck.
Personally, I don’t think men can be feminists. Sorry, guys. (And that includes gay guys too by the way.) You can sympathize, you can march, you can be good partners. But feminists are women. I can sympathize with African-Americans but I think it would audacious of me to pretend to be one of them or to have any idea what it is like to live in a racist society. I know that I have NO IDEA. I don’t see gender as any different, and most people do, which in my opinion, is the reason that women have stopped advancing in the direction of true equality. It’s no longer PC to say that “Blacks are less intelligent” but every other day there is a study saying that women do indeed have less spacial skills and have a “caring” gene that makes them want to “opt out.” Oh my god, could you imagine the outrage if a study said that poor Blacks or hispanics “opted out” of work because of their genetics? Or that they wouldn’t make good engineers because of their skin color? Ethnic groups everywhere would be protesting, and rightfully so! Yet, as women, we aren’t challenging these notions.
To me, men who call themselves feminists are pretending to understand what it is like to live as the oppressed gender in a patriarchal society. Not possible. But I also recognize that to some people, this is semantics, and I certainly don’t go around telling off guys who identify as feminist. I am suspicious of them, though, and wouldn’t want them in my crowd. They do like to take over everything.
nice post.
radicalmama – out of curiosity, have you ever asked a man why he chooses to call himself a feminist? all of the ones i’ve asked don’t try to pretend they understand. in fact, they admit they don’t understand what it feels like, but they do know that woman deserve equality, and treat their female friends, lovers, strangers, etc. as such.
interestingly enough, this reminds me of a friend i had many years ago. he did a project while in school as a character study. he had to dress the part and go to a gay leather bar for the night. being a very attractive young man, he got oggled and his ass touched and all sorts of propositions. he came back with an entirely new understanding of what it’s like to have the happen every day.
serahrose,
yes I have talked to some men about it. I understand that their intentions are good, but I still felt like they presumed to know an awful lot. My point was that you have to understand it (not academically, but personally) to really be feminist in my opinion. I don’t go around fighting about it, but it does rub me the wrong way.
Yeah I found it pretty hurtful when one of my first experiences of feminism was to be told that I couldn’t be a part of it because I was a man. I don’t mind that message so much but the force with which it was delivered was quite hurtful. Some feminists think that spitting in the faces of potential allies will further the cause. Over the years I have come to see my role in the scheme of things as a listener, reflector, sometimes an advocator but not a do-er.
I’m reminded of a recent anecdote where a group of male ruby developers wanted to attract women to their platform so they set up a site called rubychix and posted random photos of women who they met at a developer conference. Staggering cluelessness. In a strange twist, the site was taken over by a group of female developers who educated the well meaning male developers.
One of the most important thing about feminism for me is how far we have come. I am proud to be part of a tradition of women who have worked to have their talents and contributions recognised, to take their places as equals in society. I think that the benefits feminism has brought us has extended to men as well – while women have moved into the workplace, men have been able to access more of the pleasure of parenthood. you cant change the lives of half the population and not effect the other half.
Maybe its because I’m the mother of a son, but I’d like to think that ideally we arent going to remain on different sides of a barricade forever. I don’t want to see him wearing the guilt of previous generations when as a boy raised by a single mother he is acutely aware of the limitations that were placed on me, – and correspondingly – as my dependant – placed on him. (when I work, the role of ‘mothering’ a younger sibling falls to him.)
Feminism is a broad church. We have feminism according to andrea Dworkin, Camille Paglia, Daphne Patai, Katie Roiphe, Wendy Kaminer. some of it I agree with, some of it I don’t. It still pleases me to see women promoting the interests of women – I’m still looking forwards to seeing equal representation in Government and the judiciary – and I’m interested to see how we accomodate parenting in the future. Seems to me sometimes though that there is more aggression between women with/without children than there is between genders. Please correct me on that if you want to . I’d like to think my impression on that was wrong.
For me privilege is disturbing term. Its easy to see male privilege on a global scale. in Australia, privilege seems as much, if not more – class based. Smart kids of both genders are left behind when wealthy parents can buy a place at university. Recent changes to child support laws increased payments on the lower end of the scale, and dramatically cut payments on the top end of the scale. Workplace law changes worry me the most. They will affect women – but they mostly effect the women at the lowest end of the scale, – or families with young children.
In case anyone’s interested in my previous story, read the comments on this post: http://www.devchix.com/2007/05/18/railsconf/
Hmmm – that’s the one thing I struggle with almost everyday, too, as a pro-feminist male in the feminist movement (a whole other discussion regarding the term ‘pro-feminist’ is also called for, although in the end, they’re all semantics). It seems that even inside of the feminist movement, and with other feminists, we pro-feminist males are still gaining privilege rather than giving them up. But so long as we live in the gendered world, someone is going to lose, and someone is going to gain.
Marc
It seems the solution is to deal with our day-to-day complexities and take things head-on. But even as a WMST student and pro-feminist male, I scratch my head everyday and ask myself what the hell it means.
My biggest peeve: Guys who’ll support feminism because they think that the only privileges they get under patriarchy relate to sexual entitlement, and don’t really have issues with giving those ones up. Except when it comes to other privileges – especially ones that allow them to dominate discourse – asking them to give up those is just unfair.
As far as my own conduct goes… I don’t write about anything too substantial, so it hasn’t really come up yet. Basically I just look at the male feminists that women are annoyed with and attempt to do the opposite.
There’s one circumstance in which I know I’ve called myself a feminist, and one in which I know I would.
I teach history. I remember once I was talking with a male student during office hours, and he was critiquing feminism in a typically earnest-young-man way. When I said, “well, I’m a feminist,” it grounded the conversation — made it more immediate, and made it clear that when I was arguing with him I wasn’t just sticking up for someone else or taking a devil’s advocate position.
The hypothetical is similar. If one of my daughters, or one of my young nieces or nephews, asked me whether I was a feminist, I’d say yes without hesitation. Absolutely.
I’m deeply suspicious of men who claim the mantle of feminism, in general, and particularly of men who use that claim to pull rank in feminist discussions. Am I a feminist? I don’t know that it matters all that much. What matters is the work.
Brooklynite – as a pro-feminist male, I often get suspicious of other men claiming the feminist title, too. But I am sure your reasoning is different than mine. Could you tell me what yours are?
PFM — in my experience, when a guy goes out of his way to call himself a feminist, usually he’s inoculating himself from feminist criticism or hoping to get laid.
By the same token, though, when a guy goes out of his way to say that he’s not entitled to call himself a feminist, there’s a pretty good chance he’s trying to inoculate himself from feminist criticism or hoping to get laid.
So I dunno.
Brooklynite, I think your suspicion is rooted (heh pun) in not being able to clearly see a man’s motives for being a feminist or being pro feminist. As a contently married man, my motivations stem from my experience of certain men and certain aspects of society to be threatening and oppressive. I see feminism as one of many movements that promotes a more equal, free and pleasant society.
DJF, I think you misunderstood me. I am a male feminist. I understand that men can have perfectly good reasons for being feminist. What I’m skeptical about is the self-designation.
Really interesting comments everyone, THANKS! I really enjoyed reading these and the trains of thought they took me on.
radicalmama – I think I’m pretty close to your view. I would describe women as ‘feminists’ and men as ‘feminist men’ or ‘feminist-leaning men’ or “pro-feminist men’. I don’t get all that offended though when men refer to themselves as feminists. I think it is an example of male entitlement but unless they express some other examples of that entitlement I let it go. To be honest it happens so rarely that men identify as feminists that I don’t know exactly what I think when they say it. Many more men identifying happily as chauvenist pigs. Hahaha.
djfoobarmatt – I understand that you’re saying that you felt insulted but I wonder if that in itself was a good learning experience. I remember an Aboriginal elder who gave guest lectures at uni and she started her lecture by saying “I used to hate white people, I don’t hate you as much anymore”. Confronting and intimidating! The biggest part of that confrontation is suddenly feeling hated for your skin colour – But that is what Aboriginal people feel their entire lives. It was a great opportunity to gain a tiny understanding of your white privilege. And maybe your experience of feeling excluded, unwelcome, less valued can be taken as an opportunity, unpleasant as it was to think about male entitlement and to empathise with women who experience this in many, many circles. Just an idea.
rose – you’re right about many different feminisms and we don’t all agree with one another on everything and I think the many views are very helpful to feminism as a philosophy. I think your other point about raising sons was very valid, it must be very challenging. My brother fits into this scenario, he is incredibly empathetic to women as a result of being raised in hardship by our mother as a single mother. I know what impact this has had on his view of women, he’s very feminist, but I don’t know what impact this has had on his view of maleness. I must ask next time.
Brooklynite – good examples of when you’ve felt identifying as a feminist has really achieved something important.
Richie – interesting observation about some motivations for identifying as a male feminist. Can you explain this further? I would describe you almost as a radical-feminist-leaning male, is that how you would see yourself?
profeministmale – interesting point about how this all comes down to our intensely gendered world. I’ve read some interesting feminist commentary on the empowerment of celebrating gender differences (also seen in that goddess feminism) which goes against much of what I think. My big irritation is that we are preoccupied with gender differences at the expense of attention to the differences within gender and the similarities between genders. Anyway, another topic.
I think that *if* by calling themselves feminists men are claiming to understand women’s experience of culture then yeah, it’s a bad idea. If you call yourself that because you just agree with the underlying philosophy of feminism and want it to become a reality then that doesn’t seem as problematic. But if you really feel the second way it doesn’t hurt your feelings to pick another term.
Not that I have any idea what that other term might be. Yet.
I may regret this in the morning given how weighty the discussion seems to have been, but I wanted to stop by and just say that, “YES” those guys look adorable. Period. I saw your post days ago and haven’t had a chance to come back until now…but I wanted to say that…oh wait, I already said it didn’t I?
I don’t think of most things in terms of being feminist or not, although my views most likely qualify me as a feminist. That being said, I thought that discussion was fantastic.
Thank you momomax for agreeing that the men look adorable in their t-shirts, I needed some company with my objectification.
Thanks for the comment too figleaf.
I have never met a single man who would call himself a feminist. But then again, I’ve never met a single WOMAN who would call herself a feminist either! Well, why would I? After all, I’ve only been to UNIVERSITY (I’m resentful about it, sorry).
For the record, I do think men can be feminists, as long as they are willing to WORK and LEARN
Oh, one more thing. I don’t think finding the men in the picture “adorable” is objectification in any way. If they were wearing a random t-shirt, I wouldn’t find them adorable. We are focusing on an aspect of their humanity, more precisely, their ideology, an aspect that THEY decided to express, hence the t-shirt. It’s not any different that when someone says “I love cats” and you go “me too, I luv you”.
Iron MY SHIRT BITCH
me – you’re an idiot, can’t you at least come up with something funny if you’re going to try and stir some shit here?
[...] going and what it needs to do, and I think quite a lot about men and where they’re going, but I rarely combine the two. Feminist-leaning men, I’ve even got one for my very own and still I’ve not [...]