You must read this from Skepchick.
And this additional comment from Kate Harding.
Men, you have a problem here, you have to take some responsibility for this misogynist shit, even if you’re not perpetrating it, in fact, especially if you’re not perpetrating it because your stepping up is the only way to stop this stuff.
P.S. I get a lot of traffic from reddit and I have to admit to being too cowardly to usually read what is being said about me and my blog over there.
P.P.S. Contribute your experiences of sexism in the atheist/secular/skeptic community for a write-up by Skepchick. You can do this either by comment on her site, email directly to her or on twitter with the hashtag #SexismInSkepticism.
Like this:
One blogger likes this post.
Wow, I really lead a sheltered internet life. Whilst I vaguely knew this sort of shit occurred, I confess to being shocked. Thanks for the links.
Pretty shocked and disappointed here too…
[...] blue milk and tigtog have beaten me to it – so if a third recommendation is required, consider this mine for this post at Skepchick and this addendum by Kate Harding. … it’s the consequence of a sexist culture, in which any time a woman shows her face or opens her mouth in public, whatever point she wanted to make stands to be delayed by a referendum on her fuckability. [...]
I frequent Reddit and I saw this post. In all honesty, I laughed at the comments that were being made, it’s just the sense of humor I have.
That being said, I can also understand why some people would be offended or off-put by the comments. I feel that Skepchick was blowing them a little out of proportion, as they were just jokes made by people who thought they were being funny in hopes of getting a few laughs from others. Reddit is notorious for its “Pun Threads”.
I completely disagree with the fact Skepchick brought up anything about Atheism or the Atheist subreddit. The people that made these comments are responsible, not their non-belief system. A small hand full of the people in /r/Atheism are not and should not be seen as our spokespeople. I felt it was a little out of line to make a bold statement like that when it had absolutely no relevance to the topic at hand, other than the conversation taking place in /r/Atheism.
I agree that the Redditors were out of line, but Skepchick was overstepping her boundaries as well. On the whole, I do agree with Skepchick, though.
I hate the argument that a comment is innocent and not harmful because it was “just a joke.” Why don’t we let the person or group of people who are the subject of the joke to determine whether it was just a joke.
At one point she was joining in with the joking.
“Bracin’ mah anus.”
Also, no where in my post did I say that the comments were “innocent” or “not harmful”. I made it a point to say that those Redditors were out of line.
I think the word “just” before the word “jokes” implies that you thought they were innocent and not harmful ie: just jokes. But ok, I accept that you don’t actually see them that way.
There is nothing funny about rape jokes. Ever.
Completely agree. And the fact that reddit is “notorious for its pun threads” does not justify or excuse the fact that those “jokes” are disgusting and off the charts sexist and abusive.
I agree. As you can see, I did not say that rape jokes were funny. The rape jokes were what pushed the thread from funny to juvenile and disgusting.
I’m a fan of off-color jokes, but rape jokes are never okay with me.
In response to Jen, I am aware that it is not a justifiable action. I was just stating for the people who aren’t redditors how frequent Pun Threads occur. This is an example of one that got out of hand. I agree they were very appalling, and this is the kind of thing that gives Reddit the same name as the /b/ thread on 4Chan.
Gawd, I see I am commenting way too much on this post. It is just that, as a member of a minority group often the butt of people’s jokes, I am acutely aware of the power “jokes” can have to really harm people’s self-esteem and sense of inclusion in society. Time and time again I have been having a nice evening out when someone will make a casual joke that plays on derogatory stereotypes of my group. It then makes me feel like an outsider – like I can’t completely be myself around them. If I say something I am the person who kills a good night out and can’t take a joke. But if I don’t challenge the person who tells the joke, I feel like such a pathetic, disloyal person who has just effectively allowed casual intolerance to be perpetuated. I hate being in this position. And, to be honest, I often feel like I don’t fit in in my country because of it. And when I meet a new group of people I am quite nervous waiting for a joke along these lines to come out. For these reasons, I think jokes can really have the power to harm and often are masks for more deeply felt intolerances and prejudices.
The comment thread on reddit make me sick.
[...] meaning or importance – a rare enough talent. Many of her posts link to other blogs, and today’s post links to a critique of reddit comments [...]
As an aside, could someone explain to me the link between atheism and the comment thread. Is it that the atheism reddit attracts intolerant people? I know that religious threads could be intolerant too but probably not in the overtly sexual way that the atheism reddit is?(question, not suggestion) I don’t even know what reddit is so it is all new to me. My husband is a staunch atheist and I have never encountered atheism being associated with intolerance before (except the sort of intellectual does-not-suffer-fools intolerance of Dawkins et al).
I have the distinct opinion (backed only by countless hours spent on the internets) that inappropriate sexual comments/asshattery and intolerance comes from people with all religious backgrounds, especially when given an anonymous fora.
*adjusts glasses*
There is no connection, and that was the point that I wanted to get across. An attempt at a connection was made by Skepchick with her “Reddit makes me hate Atheists” title.
I believe that what a person does is their responsibility, not based on their beliefs. Although, I do believe that religion can distort one’s moral code.
The /r/Atheism subreddit, as it is called, is not overtly sexual, as this article would lead you to believe. The majority of it is mostly stories of people “coming out” as Atheists to their parents, posting scientific studies, or debating religion with their friends and family.
Only a couple people are actually awful like this.
There were more than “a couple people” upvoting some of the more offensive comments. Skepchick made a connection between sexism and atheists because virulently sexist comments were made in an online atheist community. She is an atheist and speaks and writes about sexism in the skeptic/atheist community. If you believe that what a person does is their responsibility, then it is the responsibility of that community over at r/atheism to stand up and say ‘this is not acceptable’ when people in their community say things like those comments and not only say them but upvote them like crazy.
http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/nshz6/skepchick_rebecca_watson_reddit_makes_me_hate/
This was /r/Atheism’s response to being called out in Skepchick’s blog. This is them stepping up to the plate when things like this happen in our community. They are trying to clean up the place, and let everyone know that it isn’t acceptable.
They’ve already done what you’ve suggested.
I’m not sure if you go to Reddit or not, but you don’t have to belong to a specific subreddit to upvote someone. There are 360,000 members to /r/Atheism alone. There are a lot more vulgar subreddits that could have leaked over.
All I am saying is that there is no difference if this kind of thing was posted in /r/Christianity, /r/Buddhism, or /r/Atheism. Just because they are Atheists doesn’t mean that they’re non-belief had any effect in their judgment to say those things.
Part of it is that r/atheism is one of the default reddits that users are automatically subscribed to. So many more people would see posts in their front page from that subreddit than they would if you had to actively seek it out. This means that a lot of people who are not interested in discussing atheism still see the posts, and people like to talk shit.
Absolutely. I agree completely, and I think this was the main problem.
fondlemyheart – for some reason I’m not able to reply directly to your comment. Yes, I read reddit regularly and post once in a while so I’m aware that you don’t have to be part of a community in order to upvote someone. Some of the commenters (in particular the older man who was talking about the original poster should allow old men the luxury of fawning over her because it’s so awesome and exciting when a clever mind comes in such a pretty package) are clearly atheists and regular posters.
Skepchick took exception to this because she is part of the skeptic/atheist community and it is something that affects her and other skeptic/atheist women directly. Whether there is overlap between other reddits or not, it happened in that atheist online space. The idea that atheists are somehow above this kind of behaviour has been shown again and again and again to be false.
Yes, some people have stepped up in r/atheism to say this is not acceptable, and others have started running around the internet to yell at people like Rebecca Watson and Kate Harding and feminist commenters for having the nerve to say ‘people – it’s not cool to talk about raping a 15 year old girl or holding a referendum on her fuckability just because she shows you her face in this community or any other.’
Yes I know, the commenting here is really awkward!
My goal wasn’t to say that they were above this, it was to say that there is ZERO CONNECTION. Yes, I understand that this took place on /r/Atheism. Yes, I understand that they may or may not be Atheists themselves, but they didn’t say these things to her BECAUSE they are Atheists. Do you see what I’m trying to say?
Now if they said, “I’m an Atheist, so I rape young girls that read Atheist literature”, then that connection would be fine to make, but with the situation that we are dealing with now, it is not.
I don’t think Rebecca was making that assertion at all – you seem to be stuck on the title of her post, which to me seemed like pretty normal venting about having to deal all the time with sexism in a community she is part of. It gets exhausting and a lot of women are sick and tired of it. She wasn’t saying ‘these men behaved this way BECAUSE they are atheists so now I hate atheists,’ she was saying ‘these men are atheists AND they behaved this way, which is frustrating and exhausting and depressing and makes me hate atheists.’ Again, she is an atheist herself and spends a lot of time and energy and whatever else working and writing and speaking with and for that group of people. It is perfectly reasonable to have the reaction she’s having and it seems to me that people are spending a lot of time looking at her reaction and motivation rather than the people talking about raping a 15 year old girl knowing she’ll read it, or upvoting those people, or sitting there silently allowing it to happen. Which is worse?
I’m not really stuck on it, a lot of people replied to me and it was needed that I explain myself. It was just something that irked me, but now it just looks like I was beating a dead horse. Haha.
I was bothered that she made that connection, but I’m not going to throw a brick through her window.
I understand why she wrote it, but it was little bit of a leap that I didn’t like at all.
Exactly. There’s not a huge point in calling out sexism in other people’s communities, usually – but when it’s your own community, it’s not just necessary but exhausting and repetitive and repeatedly disappointing.
“P.S. I get a lot of traffic from reddit and I have to admit to being too cowardly to usually read what is being said about me and my blog over there.”
blue milk – I took a quick peek and it seems like you usually get posted in places like r/feminisms and r/TwoXChromosomes and r/Parenting and places like that. Some subreddits are much more welcoming and less crazy.
[...] Comments « How a kid holding a Carl Sagan book showed us all how truly horrible the Internet can be.. [...]
[...] How a kid holding a Carl Sagan book showed us all how truly horrible the Internet can be. - Trigger warning for threats of rape and sexual assault. I was never a huge fan of Reddit. The feminism section wasn’t very active and it seems like all the boards are just filled with angry DudeBros. That said, I’m not surprised that people were saying these things to a 15 year old girl. But my lack of surprise does not alleviate guilt or the problem. (Part of) The problem being that there is a lack of safe spaces for women and girls on the internet. [...]