Well, that got ugly didn’t it?! (If you can’t really bring yourself to face the shit that is going down in the comments thread over at Feministe on hating children in public space then you can get a little whiff of some of the stupidest comments profiled at the perfectly safe and lovely in a garden.. somewhere instead). I have read most of the comments on that Feministe piece and it has all become so torturous that I confess to having lost most of my energy for discussing it here.
Got a couple of thoughts though: Jill’s views in her Feministe piece sound quite reasonable but see how highlighting your ‘tolerance’ for certain people (in this case children) always seems to send the exact opposite message to the world. The nastiness that has come out in the comments could be seen as a message to the authors of such opinion pieces – your views sit uncomfortably close to a very conservative agenda; one that includes a complete loathing for social services, advocates family violence, is deeply insensitive to its ableism, and refers to women by animal names.
Also, whenever these kinds of discussions about the behaviour of children in restaurants happen I wonder where the hell these people are eating? I am not denying some incidents happen, but are they really the biggest problem in fine dining today? All the tales from commenters of kids throwing food at our boyfriends, running around screaming, and jumping on tables during our romantic dinners – where are these incidents happening in such numbers? What restaurants or cafes are they frequenting? Because I don’t see much of these behaviours. And seeing as how I hang out quite a lot in places with children around, being a stupid parent and all, you’d think if there was some kind of epidemic in table-jumping in this youngest generation that I might have come across it by now. All of this leads me to suspect that we are dealing with one hell of a straw-mother (and don’t lets kid ourselves that this venom is being applied equally to both parents).
Is this to say that I have never been disturbed by a child in a public place? No. But I will honestly say that I have not been more disturbed by children than other groups of the community in public places. You have good days and bad days, you have accommodating people and a small number of obnoxiously rude people. You also have people doing the best they can and inadvertently offending you.
And this child-hating crap gets to me. A while ago I cancelled dinner reservations when the restaurant manager sounded too put out about us bringing my daughter with us. Why pay for an expensive meal when you’re going to be worrying about whether the manager is giving you the side-eye all night? I was polite but I also let them know why I was cancelling our reservations and choosing another restaurant. They sounded disappointed. Hard financial times are hard times for high-end restaurants.
One final thought. Sometimes being kind makes a world of difference. One of the comments on that Feministe thread complains bitterly about a baby crying during a visit to Target. I had a similar experience recently. During a shopping expedition in our local Target store I heard a child having a melt-down from one end of the shop to the other. My partner and I chuckled at first – been there, done that – but after a while it wasn’t funny anymore, it just went on for too long. When we were going through the check-out I heard the siren wail approaching us. It had been a good ten minutes of melt-down; I knew the state the child would be in and I could guess the state of the parent. So I was pleased when I saw this mother come to the same check-out we were lined up in. I waited and waited to catch the mother’s eye, she kept her eyes down, she had beads of sweat on her forehead, she was panicking. Finally I caught her eye, I gave her a smile. And fer face lit up in relief.
blue milk 
It only happened once, because by good fortune, my girls weren’t tantrum throwers, but one of them threw a right tanty in the supermarket once (possibly brought on by squabbling and fighting with her twin in the twin seat in trolley). “It happens,” said an older woman, with a smile.
I’ve often remembered that, and tried very hard to pass the support and kindness on to other parents.
As for that thread at Feministe… it’s up to 534 comments now, and people still want to go to coffee shops so they can have a quiet place to work. I’ve given up.
I consider the failure to empathize with a struggling caretaker (no matter the charge; child, disabled relative or friend, pet) a significant flaw in any human being. It’s like mocking someone trying to get through a door with their hands full. Being angry that they are shuffling about, struggling. Is your heart really that shriveled and small? If they aren’t so embarrassed they’re visibly on the edge of tears – and I’ve seen this – couldn’t you just give them the benefit of a doubt? Just in case they’re holding their (significantly greater than your) frustration/unhappiness in?
I haven’t commented before, but this topic does make me want to say something. It’s hard to articulate, but my feelings are centered on the fact that this: “there really are parents out there who do nothing, or almost nothing, when their kids start making life miserable for everyone else on a plane or in a restaurant or in a store” (from Kate Harding’s article) just does. not. exist.
I existed as an adult before I had children, and lived in the trendy parts of big cities where parents brought their kids everywhere (including Sydney, Boston, and Washington DC), and I honestly can’t think of a single time when a rowdy child ruined my meal/trip/event. If I search deep in the archives I can find a particularly whiny ten year old on a bus trip in Romania. And a toddler who was super-wriggly for a couple of hours on a trans-Atlantic flight. That’s it. Since I’ve become a parent, and more attuned to crying kids, I notice them a little more, but I have never encountered a parent with a crying child who wasn’t deeply embarrassed and aware of the staring eyes of others, and doing everything they could to alternately quiet the child or leave the situation as fast as humanly possibly. If you want to be come a parent, you had better get used to apologizing aaaallll the time. Just for existing with your children in public. I usually love Kate Harding, and one of the things I love is her phrase “being fat at someone”. I’m surprised she can’t reflexively see others “being a parent at someone”.
The number of children in upscale restaurants must be infinitesimally small, the response is terribly outsize. Seriously, where do these packs of wild children with oblivious parents eat their meals? I’ve never been there.
I live in a major city and ride public transportation a lot. When a baby is on the same bus with me, if that baby looks at all bored, uncertain, or unhappy, I usually smile at them, wave, and do hand tricks at them. This is a deliberate tactic to keep them interested and entertained so they won’t cry. It’s a lot easier and pleasanter than trying to ignore a crying child. If baby ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.
I’m staying far away from that Feministe thread. I have to say, I’ve heard all the stories about obnoxious children too, but my actual experience in public spaces such as the bus is that most children behave fine, most parents manage their kids fine, and I have a lot more reason to be on my guard about strange men bothering me. Which doesn’t happen often either, but I have one clear memory of undersocialized kids behaving badly, and a whole handful of men being threatening.
I think that you’ve really hit on something with the straw-mother/out-of-control child.
I guess people feel more comfortable complaining about these mythical ’30 minute tantrums in which the parents does nothing’ rather than admitting that a big part of their encounters are really their own negative reactions to just seeing a child because children represent the possibility of disruption.
I should also admit that I am the worst culprit for buying into this pressure when it comes to disciplining my own daughter. As much as I suspect that she deserves a fairly free reign in most situations, I am often the very worst kind of control-freak that insists that she behaves far better than many of the adult patrons around us in restaurants or cafes.
Alternatively, my partner and I take her outside at the tiniest hint that she might be starting to get bored or overly wriggling… to the point where my partner and I once spent the good part of a dinner alternating between eating alone and walking outside with her *in the pouring rain in winter* just to avoid the possibility of disruption!
(We couldn’t have just stayed home, as we were traveling and had to eat at some point that night. And we couldn’t have gone somewhere ‘family friendly’ because those bloody places are not ‘vegetarian family friendly’ and, also, they suck.)
I suspect that most people have similar issues to my over-concern about other people’s comfort over that of myself and my child – and these issues affect our poor children constantly – rather than the opposite tendencies that all the child-haters are whining about.
Aw, bg made an appearance at my blog too. Isn’t their vitriol charming?
The bit that just gets me is that there’s this big push to believe women, to trust women, to believe their stories and their points of view. Unless they’re mothers. Unless they’re disabled. Unless their story conflicts with the one you made up. Because for that poor woman with the screaming baby in Target, someone out there is telling a story where she’s gleefully ignoring the crying with a side order of vain/entitled/capitalist pig.
The lack of practical understanding (and the reaction when it’s suggested that some experience with children might help) is exhausting. We spend so much time explaining that dressing in drag (for whatever -ism) doesn’t give you a full understanding of the issues yet that doesn’t apply to parenting? The total lack of understanding the practical aspects of parenting can make it a hard discussion to have because ‘just get up and go’ or ‘get a babysitter’ or ‘control that child’ bely a lack of practical experience with children (and certain with that particular child at that particular moment). And that these moments are not discrete – they build and build and seem to multiply exponentially.
I’m oversensitive to it at the moment – whenever I see a new person at work I get the same questions and the same shocked response with rapid fire invasive enquiries into my relationship and my life. I can see them trying to parse what I am doing with the way they see the world. And I’m sure there are some stories out there where I feature as the horrible wife making my husband quit his beloved job.
The damned if you do, damned if you don’t gets me as well. For everyone insisting that you ‘just get up and leave’ there’s another telling you just what a terrible job you’ve done ‘giving in’ to your child’s tantrum. You give a child a dummy to ‘shut it up’ and then you’re ‘infantilising’ her and deforming her teeth. You speak to a tantrumming child and you’re just being silly, you smack you’re being abusive, you ignore you’re deliberately wrecking the world and you take them away you’re giving in (and in the case of a friend of mine, that is also apparently being abusive and for the horrible act of picking her daughter up from a tantrum in the middle of the pedestrian crossing someone said they’re ring CPS because she picked her toddler up by one arm). If you never take the child out you aren’t socialising them enough but if you do they had best not socialise in any sort of verbal or interactive way that might impact on anyone else in the area. You leave them at home you’re one of those mothers who don’t care enough. You stay home with them you’re not doing enough with your life and you’re betraying feminism. You breastfeed and you’re an exhibitionist but if you bottlefeed you’re contributing to an overwhelming societal narrative that bottle = normal baby feeding. If you request help you’re entitled and trying to insist the world do your parenting but if you object to a stranger disciplining your child then you’re entitled as well. If you research and have standards you’re a helicopter parent, if you don’t you’re neglectful.
I must admit to a bit of intolerance myself – I get frustrated by parents/caretakers with prams because I assume they aren’t aware that other people are using the space too, when I should be frustrated by retailers and the like who cram things in and make areas inaccessible to whole swaths of the community – particularly in eating areas like food courts. How the hell are you supposed to get a pram or wheelchair next to those tiny tables and chairs WITHOUT getting in the way?
Same deal with restaurants. Most good restaurants will have tables and sections spaced apart enough that you can enjoy your $100+ and if someone drops a fork – even repeatedly – shouldn’t disturb. I could rattle off a dozen decent restaurants in Melbourne alone where that’s the case. Only an eatery that is focused only on the cash coming in the door will you be crammed in so close that a child just dropping something on the floor will grate on your nerves. Solution? Stop railing against the kids and find a decent restaurant.
I always shake my head at people who opine that “My child would never behave like that because I have control over them” I’m calling bullshit. No way is your child THAT much of an angel. Maybe you had the good luck for your kid to never have a tantrum in public, but there’s no way they’ve NEVER had a tantrum.
It’s harder to be understanding when your eardrums are under assault by an inconsolable child, sure, but it’s a damn sight harder being the caretaker who knows there isn’t a damn thing they can do about it apart from ride it out and be mortified.
None of us can say we’ve always been 100% understanding. But we can all try a bit harder to be sympathetic to others situations.
I’ve given up reading the comments and I would never contribute to one of those threads. There is just no talking to some people. I think you’re right, bluemilk: it’s not about kids running amok (I too have not seen any/much of this, and I’m out in public – with my kids!!! – at restaurants !!! – a lot) but about political claims over who gets to use space. I feel silenced and marginalised reading comments on feminist blogs.
I thought Christy’s post was beautiful in pointing the privilege that informs laying down rules about who and how of public space.
And slightly off topic: what’s with ‘not liking kids’ because of kid or ‘age appropriate behaviours’? There is such diversity of developmental phases in childhood, and within any age range/ developmental stage there are variations because we are talking about unique people, not categories. My five year, Lucy, behaves very differently from any given nine year old; she also behaves very differently from other five year old; and her behaviours change from situation to situation depending on how she feels, how people treat her, etc – because she is an individual, herself first and foremost, and not ‘a child’.
Just wanted to say how much I’ve appreciated this post and the others critiquing hostility towards children in public spaces. My initial reaction to the post at Phd was bemusement at that hostility being compared to anti-semitism and so on.
I’m still chewing on elements of that from a purely theoretical viewpoint but when I thought about my own kneejerk exceptions list they were all places where I’ve never seen/noticed kids anyway (movies aimed at adults screened at night/bars etc). Complaining about kids being at restaurants, supermarkets, public transport etc is just so unreasonable and unfair.
I do try and support parents (I’m not a parent) with a friendly smile or encouraging comment when kids are getting scratchy and vocal and I get so frustrated with people who sigh and huff. Being prone to overanalysis sometimes I tie myself into silence trying not to come across as condescending or something, so that when a woman with five young kids on the bus kept looking at me worriedly as her kids wriggled and got quite loud, I ended up just blurting out ‘your baby is beautiful’. What are some good ways to support Mums in those kinds of situations, if everyone doesn’t mind me asking?
I like your friendly smile and compliment idea the best. And thank you.
Just coming over here to say that there’s nothing quite like being reviled on a feminist blog, for things you didn’t say. Sigh.
Ms Poinsettia, that’s often my response too. Even though I’m a mother myself, I feel unsure about offering help for exactly the reason you offer i.e. not wanting to be condescending. So I go with a big friendly smile, and a compliment, because that opens up a bit of room for the parent to respond if she or he wants to.
[Posting from work, so this may end up in your moderation queue, bm.]
that comment was quite bizarre, where did they think they were posting exactly????
@ ms p I have in the past spoken directly to the child having the tantrum – if they are a toddler or older. Just some stranger saying – in a jolly voice – “wow, that’s really loud you must have good lungs” (which is itself a really pointless/ableist thing to say) can often surprise them out of their temper or at least lead to a stopping of the noise for a moment. I have also played peek-a-boo with them to get the same result. Sometimes just finding that they have someone’s attention makes all the difference. Even if they do go and hide behind their mum or dad. If a parent is looking particularly worried I might ask if they have had a tough day, or make a comment that my kids always seemed to choose the supermarket/Target whatever to have a tantrum. Just something little to let them know they aren’t alone and you aren’t bothered.
I’m with you Mindy. I feel so much for the parent when a child is acting ‘outside the lines’. I still recall a day in Target when a child was throwing himself around in a nearby aisle. His mum picked him up and said “do you know, all the people in this store are thinking ‘what a silly boy, behaving so rudely, so loud inside’…” and I leaned out from behind the aisle, shook my head and tsk-tsk-ed in as disappointed a face I could muster. She did all she could to keep from laughing. One of my fears of motherhood, should it ever come, is the isolation when I’m out. People helped me when I need it now; will I get the same courtesy and thoughtfulness when I’m a mum? Will those be the days when my 2nd-class citizenry is most apparent?
It was nice to come home and find this thread alive with kindness. Thanks for everyone’s thoughtful comments.
I should have highlighted Deborah’s own very considered post on this topic earlier too:
http://inastrangeland.wordpress.com/2010/05/17/children-are-people-too/#comments
One of the best things that anyone ever did for me was – I had had a horrible shopping expedition (I had a very tired, hungry little boy) who would not get in the trolley, I was carrying him at the checkout while trying to unpack the trolley, placate him, do it all quickly so I didn’t hold anyone up, reddening under the stares, juggling my purse and shopping etc and a lovely woman came right up to my son and said “let’s help mummy put the things on the checkout” – which he DID immediately, spellbound. I nearly cried with gratitude, very gorgeous, and made all the onlookers feel bad for not having helped. (which also gave me a frisson, I will admit). She may have also said how beautiful he was or something (flattery will go far). So, Ms Poinsettia, practical help always goes down well with me in difficult situations.
I have just realised in all this that I haven’t read (not that I’ve read the entire Feministe comment stack) a comment that has mentioned Post Natal Depression. Maybe the mother whose baby is crying just can’t do anything about it. Maybe she’s out in public because that way she knows she can control her anger and frustration at a baby who can’t stop crying because people are watching. Maybe she’s following the advice to get out of the house so that the baby’s crying doesn’t echo off the walls. To people in coffee shops wanting somewhere quiet to work – how about finding a library?
Also Ms Poinsettia – not that you’d be likely to do this, but don’t suggest that maybe the baby is tired, needs a feed or nappy change. This happened more often with grandmother-aged women though.
Ugh! Just got a very nasty comment from b.g. at my place. I’ve published it, with some editing, but b.g. has gone onto the permanent moderation queue.
b.g. gets around, does ol’ b.g.