This is a thought-provoking post from Daddy Dialectic… you might like to join the conversation over there where Jeremy Adam Smith is discussing results from a survey he ran recently that supports growing evidence of significant discrimination against fathers. Discrimination from whom, you may ask? The answer is other parents. And the type of discrimination is the ‘every man is a potential sexual predator’ variety.
What are your thoughts? I have moved on this one. I used to think this.
This point we have reached where we are jumping at shadows, suspicious of every interaction a man has with a child… well, we have been a long time coming to this point. Because as unpleasant as this point is – it is a point where people at last understand that child sexual abuse is abuse, that it is occurring in numbers akin to an epidemic, that when a person sexually abuses children it is habitual behaviour (not something that happens because they are feeling low or were drunk or confused by the child’s behaviour or clothing) and, that the unadulterated trust of the past has been one of the key elements that allowed this abuse to flourish.
I now think I was wrong on that.
I think that sympathising with those who are discriminating against men around children isn’t furthering any serious awareness of child sexual abuse at all. Instead, it exaggerates the ‘stranger danger’ risk, at the expense of the more frequent incidents involving people of trust as perpetrators of abuse (with the result that this actually prevents the community from recognising a lot of child sexual abuse when it happens because it lacks the big ‘stranger danger’ cues); it ignores the role men/fathers play as allies to women/children sexual abuse survivors; and it plays into myths about sexual abuse, such as the idea that women can’t be abusers or that boys/men can’t be the victims of women.
Part of what has moved me on this issue is having children myself. I now socialise a lot more with fathers – particularly, the fathers of my children’s friends. And I have also encountered plenty of situations where I have trusted those fathers to supervise my children alone, and where my friends have trusted my partner to supervise their children alone. Like all stereotypes, exposure has been a powerful counter-weapon.
If you haven’t seen this blog, you must. Here’s a related video on dad playground discrimination:
http://www.themompetition.com/2011/01/dadversaries-stay-at-home-dad.html
Thank you so much for talking about this. As a Dad and a human being who absolutely adores kids, I frequently know the feeling that if you talk to someone’s child, you may get “the look”.
For those of you who have never experience the look, it’s the look of accusation, the look of penetrating anger and the assumption that you can’t be an affectionate, caring human because your a man.
So mostly, the safe bet is stay the heck away from any kids other than your own.
It’s deeply saddening, and it’s saddening to see grandfathers at schools waiting for grandchildren, being watched like a hawk on the assumption that dirty old men are the prevalent danger to children.
Thank you again to Blue Milk for shedding light on this and for showing that feminism can break down barriers for both genders.
I don’t have a lot of deep things to say – except ‘yes’. We have been talking, in my household, about trying to dig out some classic Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood, Mr. Dressup and the Friendly Giant – to let the kids explore the concept* of the neighborhood man, who loves kids and whose house is the local hangout for kids because he’s so good at entertaining.
And also because I thought it would be good for them to see that TV didn’t always model such a narrow view of what it is to be a man. That men can be quiet, thoughtful, nurturing, creative, artistic, and emotionally insightful.
* Even if it is hopelessly antiquated now and not something they would ever see in their own neighborhoods. I also have to consider whether, because they’re such old shows, there might be some problematic messages that I don’t remember.
G’day Megan, I’m not sure if you know, but the early episodes of Sesame Street are now available, but are not recommended for children, as Gordon shows a little girl around the street introducing her to everybody and then giving her milk and cookies at his apartment.
Wow, that Daddy Dialectic post was eye-opening. It never occurred to me that fathers would be excluded from parenting groups. There’s a part of me that wants to, and is somewhat able to, account for and wave away caregivers who are afraid of random men standing around a playground, but to exclude a dad from a group where you’d presumably get to know him and his child? I do not understand that.
I thought this was interesting and showed it to my husband, who has been a stay-at-home dad since my son was 4 months old. We talked about for quite some time. It appears he is either (a) in quite a minority as someone who hasn’t experienced explicit discimination in playgrounds and playgroups, or (b) he is sufficiently socially clueless that he hasn’t been aware of any discrimination.
He typically gets more of the opposite – accolades for being such an involved father. He and my son have actually been invited to join playgroups, possibly in order to demonstrate “See, fathers can be active parents too!” When groups of female caregivers ignore him at the playground, he typically assumes it is because he is not a part of their existing clique, not because he is threatening as a man.
Of course, he is kind of hippy-ish. So it is possible that he simply exudes more of a “crunchy dad” energy than a creepy, child predator energy, and people pick up on that. Who knows?
Thanks for sharing this.
Not wanting to exclude male parents is part of why I try really hard to not automatically say (or write) mom, moms, etc. I try to use stay at home parent, for instance.
We’re considering a career switch in our family where I go from being the SAHP to being the primary bread winner, and my husband goes from PBW to SAHP. (why don’t we both work? Because we can’t afford child care! HILARIOUS, NO?) I think he’ll do a great job as a SAHP but I worry that he’ll have a hard time connecting with other SAHPs because he has a penis and thus is a rapist OBVS.
Such a tough issue. I feel wary of men, at times, and find myself in reacting in ways I’m not proud of. For instance, the other day I say a man sitting on a bench at the playground. I automatically felt a surge of panic, and wondered why he was there. Shortly thereafter, his little ones ran up to him and jumped into this arms. I think that men probably encounter suspicious reactions such as mine quite often. That said, I think that emphasizing the “stranger danger” aspect that you mention is indeed harmful, as it does not recognize the fact that most child abuse is done at the hands of those close to children. I adore the idea that men are allies, and that through cooperation with them, we can ensure a safer world for our children. (As well as for ourselves–women–in the context of sexual assault and rape.)
[…] This post was mentioned on Twitter by blue milk, Jeremy Adam Smith. Jeremy Adam Smith said: I'm moved & grateful for the thoughtful reactions the "Parenting While Male" survey is getting on #feminist blogs http://bit.ly/fNPIVq […]
While I do sympathise, I feel that the “playground discrimination” meme – and it’s been around a long time – plays a lot on the fact that women are very well aware that they get discriminated against in male-dominated occupations, while men are surprised and hurt and outraged because they’re not used to being the ones discriminated against and they have downplayed structural gender discrimination – they (GENERALLY as a group, not individuals, and I include patriarchal women in that “they”) question the glass ceiling because it’s hard to quantify, but once they encounter the playgym ceiling as it were, they know damn well something’s going on.
I feel for them, but some men – and I don’t mean necessarily JA Smith, but I see this in blog comments and elsewhere – don’t react by pulling back and thinking “hmmm, discrimination. This is what it feels like. Interesting. Also, would it be this way if we hadn’t exaggerated the women-as-child-carer role for centuries?” Instead, we get outrage that something got in their way, so to speak. Men need to recognise that gender apartheid is structural (and therefore, not the personal fault of that man or woman over there) and question the attitude of “wow, I wanted to do something but found other people made it difficult. I’m not used to being in this situation!”
In other words, as the USians say, they need to check their privilege and not be all “baaaaaad mums discriminating against Dads after centuries of being told only women can adequately care for children, and therefore must sacrifice income, career and leisure.”
Helen, you have raised some excellent points here.
A big part of what changed my thinking on this was reading the comments on forums from those who were actually doing the discriminating against dads in playgrounds – a lot of it was really over the top stuff; a level of fear and a sense of outrage that I just couldn’t relate to about men being in the same space as (potentially naked) children.
and yet it all comes around to discriminating against women. Men are still told they can’t be the primary carer during the working day means that women take the job, regardless of what is actually best for the people in that family. This is the same old “get back in the kitchen” directed at the mother, proxied through the father. (assuming mixed gender parents)
I’m pretty sure it all ties back into the thought that, because there’s a man here looking after these children, there must be a woman somewhere NOT DOING HER JOB looking after her children, and selfishly advancing her career to pay the bills, when she should be there in the playground.
On Ya Blue Milk.
I gotta say that after two and a half decades working in the welfare sector where it is common for men to be held to a different standard than women esp in terms of their interpersonal relations with clients, i was expecting something like this. so when i got it, it wasn’t so bad for me. Sure some of the sidelong looks had more venom than i was comfortable with and nobody likes to be excluded, esp when you are struggling and isolated, which is a pretty easy state to get into when you are a SAHP a long way from your normal networks.
i would add tho that it is not just women, i got a rather unsubtle vetting from the partner of one of the women on our parents group, whether he thought i might be a philanderer or a pervert i wasn’t sure. I’ve also arrived at the park to see several men all giving each other sidelong looks, as tho each sees themselves as the only safe grown male in the place. and don’t get me started the stuff the poor bloke who works at our child care centre get put thro.
also Helen is right, we have to watch out for the “see we get discriminated against too, therefore Feminism is a load of old cobblers” argument, and yes i have had that discussion. I have tried to remain aware that i am challenging a dominant paradigm here and that there are going to be tough patches that have nothing to do with the needs and challenges of my kids. Maybe OT but i got refused a mobile phone contract this morn because i don’t have an income and i have a y chromosome. there are several hoops that i can jump thro and the sales clerk tried their hardest to earn their commission but we were both disappointed.
i know that this comment is getting long, but i want to finish by saying that the positive stuff has more than made up for any negative events, the nod and smile from a mum after her child has asked for a push on the swing, followed by a coffee from the thermos she had, the ongoing and precious support from our parents group, these things and more have helped make this exp such a positive one.
Hmmm. Interesting. I just talked to my husband about this, and his experience is more like Shana’s husband’s. He’ll often come home from the park telling me about the people who he’s chatted with- and a lot of times, they are other dads, but there are also moms and grandparents in there. I wonder if there is a strong geographical component to it? I also wonder if the age of the kids has something to do with this- ours are still quite young, so he’s clearly interacting with his own offspring when he’s at the park with them.
I can definitely see the playgroup exclusion happening, though, particularly for stay at home dads. A lot of playgroups grew out of the breastfeeding support group I went to, for instance. Dads were welcome there, but we only had a couple over the entire time I went. My own husband could never bring himself to go in- even when he had to drive me to it after my second baby was born, because I’d had a c section and couldn’t drive. I don’t necessarily blame the guys for this- there are a lot of new moms just figuring things out and groups like that, so a lot of exposure, so to speak.
Our playgroups generally form out of day care, and so we all know the other parents and kids, and having a dad show up alone with the kids isn’t odd. But for the stay at home crowd, I can see how it would be very different.
I wonder if there’s a class piece, too – I live in a working-class neighborhood and there have always been a lot of dads around, either because they’re late-shift workers or have seasonal jobs like construction. And since the recession started here, there have been a lot more, because so many are out of work. Plus the playgrounds are full of teens and young men – hanging out, playing basketball, supervising siblings.
Another perspective entirely: that men (and women?) believe that if men and women are left alone in the ‘burbs together they will realise they prefer each other’s company to that of the working partner who they have nothing in common with anymore, and start bonking.
Case in point: my mother saying how nice it was that my husband allowed/let me/didn’t mind (can’t remember her exact words) there being a dad in our coffee group and me hanging out with him and our kids. As if I weren’t hanging out with lots of dudes during the day when I had a paid job!!
Thanks for the impressive link and discussion. I think many of the same arguments are around as to why you don’t find many men in teaching, especially in early childhood education and first years of primary school.