The appetite for knowing more about what other feminist-y women fight about with their partners and how they resolve those arguments is really huge, isn’t it? I mean, we want to know, we really want to know, don’t we? We want any help we can get. And that’s one of the best things about feminist-y women, from my experience, they’re quite a bit more likely than non-feminist-y women to actually tell you about their relationship warts .
You also need feminist friends around you because they seem to be the only ones who can deal with your own unravelling without recoiling in horror and scandal. I was chatting to a lovely feminist mother friend the other day about mutual relationship dramas and she told me this funny story about how she caught up with some old friends at a work event recently and they asked her what she was up to these days. She told them about how she is now the primary bread-winner and her husband, who suffers from problems with anxiety, has become a stay-at-home father. They were very admiring of my friend and her husband and their relationship, saying something along the lines of, you’re amazing being able to work something out like that, negotiate everything, with all your flexibility and openness to change as a couple. How do you do it, they asked her. She told them it was that or divorce; that this was a last-ditch attempt at finding a solution before splitsville, and then she described to me how the respect simply drained away from her friends’ faces, how they went from looking super impressed by her to looking quite horrified. I laughed, because my friend and her husband are really quite sweet together, and because my friend is totally worthy of admiration, all the more so because her relationship isn’t perfect. I also laughed because I don’t think I have gone more than a few months in my relationships, ever, without threatening the equivalent of divorce to my partners. I like to experience love thinking we could end it any time. I like to at least be able to pretend that I won’t settle for anything less than actual equality in a relationship.
The other reason why it is lovely to talk to friends about your arguments is that sometimes they can put a nice spin on things for you. Like this same friend, who interrupted my story about this pattern I was observing in my relationship with Bill where he is always switching off and I am always switching on to say how much she loved how relaxed Bill always is. Well, switching off, it will do that for you, make you rather relaxed; so yes, there is that, I do have a relatively calm partner.
Having said all that, here is Katherine Rosman’s argument with her husband, written up in The Wall Street Journal (as you do):
There are three people in my marriage: my husband, me — and the baby sitter.
No, not like that. But when two parents work full time, a child-care provider becomes an important part of the family dynamic.
That became clear on a recent Friday morning, when the baby sitter called in sick. It didn’t take long before her flu devolved into a referendum on the divvying of domestic responsibility and, to some degree, gender roles.
This is another from Katherine Rosman, and what she is describing here is exactly what Bill and I fight about, the checks and balances of responsibility and freedom:
When we argue, it’s usually about currency, which in a marriage is about far more than dollars. It’s about time. It’s about whose agenda gets top billing. It’s about the divvying up of responsibility. It’s about an intricate system of checks and balances.
Finally, if you really want to hear honest reflection on the messiness of feminist marriage you look no further than Buffalo Mama... like here, here, and here on her new blog. I absolutely crave posts like hers – she is fearlessly unguarded and incredibly insightful. (And while she doesn’t pull any punches on her blog I am still aware that these are very personal posts of hers, so let’s not discuss anything here about her posts in a manner that could be intrusive).
Very true. I have one good friend that I can talk to about the messy details of my marriage (especially childcare arrangements) – we have lunch together infrequently but I always look forward to the opportunity to let it out.
I wonder if you want to remove her old blog name in your post. It sounds like she doesn’t want people in her personal life to find her new blog and this post comes up as one of the top hits with her old blog name and new blog.
Anyway, very interesting and I’m very glad to know she’s back. Once I read and digest these posts I have to come back and comment.
Good call. Updated.
But I’m so glad! because I was reading this wondering if it was … X… and now I guess it is! Hurray! I missed her writing!
So I promised to come back and comment when I digested Buffalo Mama’s posts and, apparently, it took me three months to do that. But here I am!
I actually have thought frequently about her set of posts over the past few months, especially the third one in which she discusses caretaking vs. being taken care of. What a simple concept, right? Well, it never occurred to me to view my relationships in that way. It’s been a huge revelation to me and made me realize I’ve never had a relationship-whether romantic, friend, or familial-in which I was taken care of, I’m always the caretaker. That’s a bit simplistic of course but certainly that role of caretaker dominates the other roles I inhabit in my relationships. It’s been sort of a sad realization actually. I don’t want it to be that way, I WANT to be taken care of on occasion and I feel it would be good for me. The problem is once people view you in that way it’s hard for them to shift to providing care rather than receiving it. You’re the independent, strong one, right? Those times when you’re not independent and strong are scary to them because they’ve grown so accustom to relying on you to hold it together. It’s tiring.
It’s also incredibly challenging to admit to a desire to be taken care of as a feminist. It exposes certainly vulnerabilities that, while I’m perfectly willing to admit to them privately, I wouldn’t people to attach to my public persona. Obviously, I’m a big part of the problem as well: I’m so attached to that part of my identity as “the person who has her shit together” that it’s hard to carve out a new path that allows for new and different experiences.
Maybe I’ll be back in another three months with more thoughts…
Yes, hooray for married/life-partnered feminist-y pals we can trust enough to reveal our authentic, vulnerable selves — including the ouchy parts of our identity that include relationship warts. We’ve all got ’em. It takes a special kind of person to be able to listen without prejudice or agenda. There are 2 women I can tell in my real life that we’ve been to marriage counseling, it worked wonders for us, and we’ve since been working our asses off to stay happily married. Maybe I should be a bit braver IRL and try admitting some of these vulnerabilities a bit more, instead of just blogging about it anonymously.
I could agree more, but my head may detach from the vehement nodding. It is just like this! I get the same fascination from reading these descriptions of conflict from other feminists, too. There is something powerful in knowing you share these struggles with other women, and in seeing yourself, reflected. I think it’s a combination of voyerism, therapy, and sociology (that’s my excuse!).
I think that quote from Rosman is exactly what is top billing in conflict in my partnership, currency, and whose is trading higher. I’m at home, parenting, and my partner is out in the world, being a big shot, and the everyday negotiations and experience of interpreting this into our lives is hard work sometimes. All those layers of crap about what is and isn’t valued, both by ourselves, personally, and by society as a whole.
I especially love the bit about turning to divorce, I am just like this. Every few months I am firmly plotting my “freedom” and raising divorce in apparently harmless arguments about shopping and childcare. I think it’s that I need to prove how serious these ostensibly “small” things are to me, as a feminist, as a person.
Great post, thanks, and I think I need to write more about this, myself, judging from the length of my comment. It’s strange how many blogs are silent about conflict of all kinds, with partners, with kids, with themselves, with the world.
Housework. Always.
I have explained over and over again that reminding him to do HIS chores makes me his mum, which means having sex with him EVER AGAIN is like pedophilia. . . and he still doesn’t get it.
Oh, and I also had to teach my husband not to play with his iphone if I was still crying. That, to his credit, he has managed to absorb.
Oh, how I wish I could live in his head. It’s a beautiful, peaceful place.
Louise Curtis
I see too many discussions of fighting on the internets.
http://nicoleandmaggie.wordpress.com/2011/03/08/the-mommy-boards-are-making-me-sad-again/
Sure, there is the argument that starts from “well, my husband refuses to eat left-overs” and then there is the argument that starts from “so, I noticed that we are stuck in this pattern that is really sexist and I want my husband to think about changing that”.
One is intensely frustrating for me to hear about and the other one is fascinating. What happened then, how did that negotiation go for you, what were the trade-offs? I just want to know more and more when I stumble upon a feminist writing about those kinds of arguments with her partner.
One doesn’t have to get into an argument to discuss feminism. One can discuss it like adults.
e.g. “Chores need to get done. How can we attack this problem together in a way that is non-sexist and makes both of us happy?” “If we both dislike doing something, can it be outsourced? How can we find the money to do that?” Attack the problem as a team, don’t attack the partner. Look at it as joint problem solving rather than arguing.
http://nicoleandmaggie.wordpress.com/2011/05/08/do-relationships-take-work-part-2/
nicoleandmaggie, it is not reading about the minutiae of other couple’s lives that you find unrewarding, it is reading about the anger?
I haven’t read these mothering forums, so I am not entirely sure what you’re responding to .. But my hunch is that whenever a negotiation involves a power shift, which is necessary when you move from an unequal relationship to one with more equality, then there are new winners and losers in that arrangement and I think it is a safe bet that there will be some anger somewhere.
Unpacking the example you provided – which activities happening in the household are labelled chores and which are invisible, who does the invisible ones, who notices that chores need to get done that aren’t getting done, who raises the topic, who comes up with the possible solutions, who picks up the slack while the solutions are being resolved? Is it both people in the couple or is it the woman in that (heterosexual) relationship? And if it is the woman doing that then why is she the one doing all the work of that problem-solving and negotiation in the relationship? As I’ve mentioned before, if you’re the one doing the work of making sure the division of labour is equal in your household then you’re the one with the least power in that relationship.
With respect, please go and read somewhere else, then.
THIS!
🙂
Before we were married, I watched my (sweet, generous, willing) boyfriend (now husband) clean the bathroom of his parents’ house each Saturday.
Every time he walked through a public room, his mum would say, “Have you cleaned the bathroom yet?” and he would say, “Oh! No, I haven’t yet.”
After about six repeats of that conversation, he would actually clean the bathroom. The next time he passed his mum, she would say, “Have you cleaned the bathroom yet?” and he would say, “Yes I have!”
Then she would say, “Did you take out the bathroom rubbish yet?” and he would say, “Oh! No I haven’t!”
This would repeat several more times, then repeat with slight variation (“Have you cleaned the bathroom floor?” “Oh!”) until it was all done.
My mum-in-law is a strong, smart lady. My husband is a smart, good-hearted man. Something is wrong at the core of our society.
Women are taught how to get a job, how to look after a household, and how to raise children. Men are taught how to get a job.
When I look two generations back, I see men who do no household chores (and often no fathering) at all. When I look one generation back, I see massive improvement from the generation before. But this generation still instinctively believes that when they come home, their work day is done. And it’s just not true.
As a wife, I explain things to my husband, carefully and clearly, over and over again (a process I began before we moved in together). Sometimes he gets it. Usually he doesn’t – but he tries to act as though he does (out of kindness). At most, I remind him to clean the bathroom once (and if he forgets parts of the job, they stay forgotten – better a dodgy bathroom than falling deeper into the mum abyss).
I hope that as a mother I can raise up a generation that makes this one look bad.
Louise Curtis
We argue about time. About who gets more and who feels their ” thing” is more important.
When our daughter is sick because I can take paid leave I generally take the day off, however this doesn’t happen without it being made very clear that it is not ONLY my responsibility to care for her.
We argue about presumptions over chores. My husband is a chef and he loves to cook he cooks dinner every night! Yes, this is great however some women (try) to make me feel bad about thus, because ” he has been cooking all day and he gas to comf home and cook” to which I reply yes I come
Home and vacuum the house, put washing on fold washing, bath and feed our child, and run my not so small now online business. Yes it is great that he cooks but it is said in such a way that I am the luckiest person in the world!!!
Oh, absolutely! Whose priorities are more important. Whose time is more free. Who is most responsible for child care. Who gets the presumption of responsibility, and who the presumption of “it’s not my job”.
I, too, sometimes wish I had the luxury of seeing the world and our roles in it the way my husband does. So clear, so easy. When it comes to our new baby daughter, it was so so easy for him to say to me “she needs you.” This was how he explained to both of us his lack of involvement in rocking her to sleep or just holding her in general. He justified it with “your her mother. She needs you more than me.” And it was that simple in his mind.
Now that she’s 10 months old, it’s a pattern. She no longer needs me as much. She only drinks every 4 hours or so. In fact, she’s been babysat by her grandmother on several occasions for an entire afternoon, but her dad? No, he still calls his mom over to help if I’m going to leave baby with him for more than 15 minutes. And that is not because he wouldn’t know what to do, it is because caring for her would impede his other plans.
And here I thought all my detailed blog-writing about relationship strife and inequality was just a lot of moaning and bitching of no interest to anyone. 😛
I just listened to a wonderful panel discussion on death & dying, palliative care, etc. here http://www.abc.net.au/rn/nationalinterest/
One of the panellists remarked, as one would remark on a natural phenomenon, that women become terminally ill and their partner is suddenly thrust into the caring role – and he has to do the domestic role as well. And, she said, many men (still) can’t even work a washing machine.
Her suggestion was that the palliative care system should include training of the carer as an element of the service (I think – I was listening while doing domestic work, huh! ;-/ )
Without a feminist critique of society and how gender based roles can limit us, stuff like that is going to make society look like a silly Heath Robinson machine with rubber bands and other bits tacked on here and there to make it work. We need to teach boys how to do the domestic work, not assume someone will always be there to do it for them.
Evey once and awhile, I blog about how we divide up our household chores or about an argument around that sort of thing. I always feel like I’m writing the most boring blog post ever when I do this, but I usually get comments and emails thanking me for writing those posts.
I have to be honest: it freaks me out a bit when someone comments on a post like that and says that they need examples for how to arrange their life with their partner. I don’t feel like a good example, although I guess my husband and I do have a pretty smooth life in this area: we argue about chores infrequently, and when we do argue, he’s as likely as I am to feel things have gotten out of whack-perhaps even more likely.
I guess the one thing we did “right” was have a discussion where we each laid out all the things we did that felt like chores and we agreed that if one person thought it was a chore, it was a chore. No saying (for instance) that because I like to cook that doing the weeknight meals isn’t a chore- because it is.
But I think the details of how to divide up chores or whatever are really specific to your situation. Whether or not sleep comes easily for your kids, for instance, makes a huge difference. I get a pass on some chores right now because I have to go to bed earlier than my husband- because our toddler screams her lungs out if he tries to comfort her when she wakes up in the middle of the night. Neither of us is happy with this arrangement- I’d rather share the sleeplessness and he’d rather share the snuggles, but that’s how it is right now, so we’ve adjusted things accordingly. Someone with kids who sleep through the night and go to sleep easily could copy how we arrange things, but it wouldn’t be right for them.
“I guess the one thing we did “right” was have a discussion where we each laid out all the things we did that felt like chores and we agreed that if one person thought it was a chore, it was a chore.”
I like that, and I love hearing how other people work toward equality. Partner and I have big issues with what counts as work and what must be done. He has much higher standards than I do in regards to most housework, which became a big problem when I was off work and we split the cleaning accordingly. I have to admit that I have spent a couple of years being annoyed at his standards, and his seemingly endless list that gets in the way of our fun. Its a point I need to learn to accept from his viewpoint.
We do have issues the other way, too though. He does two meals on a weekend, but until recently often forgot, or waited for me to tell him to do it, and then he had no plan and I ended up spending time helping him pick something to make, reminding him how to cook it, etc. Now there’s a process- he picks the meals in advance and prepares for them.
One thing we’ve done well- we have a task list with days of the week on it. The thing gets done by the day it says, and there isn’t any nagging before that. I work less so do more housework, but he cares more about the housework, which used to lead to lots of nagging which made us both unhappy – he felt tense about the work not getting done, I felt like an employee (very unsexy and unequal).
We have been watching True Blood and we now joke with each other about doing a Russell Edgington (i.e. ripping someone’s throat out vampire like). Let me tell you I almost came close last night when he said “Oh, I haven’t gotten around to cleaning your toilet either”. My toilet?
But he now knows how to use a washing machine since last fight where I told him that he was old enough to do his own washing. He already does his own ironing, and often most of mine – but since i usually wear jeans and polo shirts to work that’s not hard. I still do the kids washing, and will until they hit 10.
I don’t know that he will ever notice all the stuff that I notice and do, but if he can take on some tasks as his own so that I don’t have to think about them any more then that will be great too.
@Mindy, “Doing a Russell Edgington” from True Blood … I love it! For the uninitiated, you can see it here:
I am so, so relieved to know that other reasonable, responsible adults are threatening divorce left, right and centre. We have frequent calm, collected conversations about whose job is what and what is a chore etc etc but then guess what? I’m the only person who ever follows through. Grumble grumble grumble.
[…] This post by blue milk came so at the right time – or wrong time -that it made me want to contribute my bit – or more honestly, rant. […]
[…] This post is inspired by a FB friend’s status – she doesn’t comment here so I won’t go into detail. She mentions dealing with work and housework in twenty minute modules. I also often use her advice which came from her Mum to never leave a room empty handed if there is something that needs to go to a different room. I find this stuff fascinating [see also Bluemilk’s post on other people negotiating their relationships]. […]