Just as the watchword of my generation was freedom, that of my daughter’s generation seems to be control. Is this just the predictable swing of the pendulum or a new passion for order in an ever more chaotic world? A little of both. We idealized open marriage; our daughters are back to idealizing monogamy. We were unable to extinguish the lust for propriety.
Punishing the sexual woman is a hoary, antique meme found from “Jane Eyre” to “The Scarlet Letter” to “Sex and the City,” where the lustiest woman ended up with breast cancer. Sex for women is dangerous. Sex for women leads to madness in attics, cancer and death by fire. Better to soul cycle and write cookbooks. Better to give up men and sleep with one’s children. Better to wear one’s baby in a man-distancing sling and breast-feed at all hours so your mate knows your breasts don’t belong to him. Our current orgy of multiple maternity does indeed leave little room for sexuality. With children in your bed, is there any space for sexual passion? The question lingers in the air, unanswered.
From “Is sex passé?” by Erica Jong.
Here is what I thought about Jong’s previous writing on the subject of ‘attachment parenting’; this time I think she is just stirring the pot for clicks for The New York Times. Her theories feel contrived, her conclusions half-baked. For starters, the question of co-sleeping and space for sexual passion is far from unanswered. Secondly, Jong thinks mothers are frightened of sex, but it is motherhood we truly fear. The motherhood movement as a backlash against sex? For the record, I’m perfectly capable of being obsessed by both sex and motherhood, thank you very much.
“For the record, I’m perfectly capable of being obsessed by both sex and motherhood, thank you very much.”
I completely agree. Jong’s previously article on Attachment Parenting had me stewing for days. I haven’t even clicked over to this one, despite seeing it mentioned around the blogosphere. I don’t want to give her the traffic, only to end up pissed off in the end.
For what it’s worth, I’m quite certain that motherhood has made me sexier than I was before. In the past, I lacked confidence. Now? I know that I can birth a baby with no drugs, feed that baby with food that comes from my body, and love and nurture that baby into securely attached toddlerhood. Hear me ROAR. My body is awesome.
And, I have officially gone off track and written a post to your post…
Going OT also to say…
Oh hell yes! I am pretty sure I am sexier now than I was before I gave birth. Part of that is probably something to do with age and self acceptance that supposedly occurs in our 30’s. But given that I became a mother in my very late teens/ early twenties I attribute it more to motherhood than age. Motherhood actually allowed me to love my body, flaws and all. As my body changed of it’s own volition I was no longer concerned with conformity to normative beauty standards and became far more enthralled by the things my body could do.
Not to mention the infatuation my husband developed for my changing body either. I am no longer the svelte size 8 woman he met, but I believe he loves and desires my body post motherhood far more than he did pre-motherhood. And the fact that we co-slept and I had an infant attached to my chest constantly, our passion and ardour for each other certainly never suffered. (We just got more creative)
And truth be told, I find now that our kids are aged 8-15 means more often than not we have to relegate our more passionate trysts to the bedroom/bathroom and even then we still get interrupted. (I really need a lock on my bedroom door. It’s the only down side to home schooling.)
And now I have to add another blog to my RSS feed, because you are awesome.
I need more hours in the day.
Oh dear. I had no idea our baby carriers (the ones Eric wore just as much as I did) were “man-distancing.” If you can’t figure out how to hug or kiss a person who’s carrying a baby in a sling … well … oh dear indeed.
My husband used to get lots of ‘ooh’ looks when he wore our babies, and they weren’t just looking at the babies either.
What, oh what, is an “orgy of multiple maternity”?
Yup, contrived. The people I know who have open marriages or are polyamorous (myself included) are the same ones who cosleep with their babies. Most of our more sexually conventional friends approach their relationships with their babies more conventionally, too.
And it’s true, my breasts don’t belong to my mates. Strange that she of all people is conflating the desire for physical and sexual autonomy with refusing sexuality.
Yes, exactly! I didn’t know whether to foam at the mouth or laugh at the inanity of someone calling herself a feminist in one breath and then in the other claiming that a woman’s breasts are for her husband! Um, I’m pretty sure my breasts belong to ME, no one else, much like my sexuality which also belongs to me, no matter when, where, how, or how frequently (or infrequently) I have it.
I love this blog! I discovered it because you posted a link to mine, ReelGirl. Even if you disagree with EJ’s piece, you should check out the new book Suagr In My Bowl. I have a short story included about sex/ motherhood. I’m obsessed with monogamy as a writer because too much fiction ends ‘with happily ever after.’ I wanted to write a story about a newlywed couple and throw some challenges their way, how marriage can be (is?) the opposite of settling down.
Margot
Thanks for the lovely lovely comment and I fixed the URL that your name now points to for you.
Would love to read your piece in the new book, Sugar in My Bowl, too.
Thank you and thank you for fixing my ID, now if I could only figure out how to fix it in wordpress! And thanks again for your blog
MM
Christina, yes. “But my breasts *don’t* f**ing belong to him” was my grumpier response to that sentence.
I love how she starts out with “the younger generation has a problem” and then immediately blames it on her daughter (and all daughters, everywhere), attachment parenting, the religious right, and finally, feminists.
Great!
I hate to ask this question, but where’s the male half of this presumed heterosexual coupling (or lack thereof), Ms. Jong? Why, when you have a paragraph and a half devoted to how sexual women are punished in the media, do you seem to largely demand that women fix this issue?
Hi,
Whether you agree with her or not – it seems to me that the topic of mothers and sex deserve a whole lot more airplay. Yes, I’m inclined that think that Jong may be stiring the pot – but its a pot that needs a stir and good on her for going there. This is a topic that has been of concern for me for ages. Being one of those slightly obsessive internet users over the years I’ve trawled mostly forums that have been popular with mums. To be honest I have been amazed to hear who I think are pretty young women talking about sex like it was back there – something they didn’t have much time and space for these days. This is an undercurrent – with all the talk about cooking, baby names, play dates and a whole lot more including exhaustion and problems with hubby that seems to me doesn’t include the joy of sex – am I wrong?
Talking for myself. After having what I thought was a pretty good birth that, by the way, included an episiotomy I found that for many months after the birth of my first child I just didn’t have an orgasm. I brought this up with a doctor at some point and the look she gave me – seemed to be saying – oh you have orgasms #$#@$ – there was no joy from this appointment. Then by chance I met someone from a midwifery college and she went on to tell me that this is a bi-product of the procedure – something I didn’t know – and the way she saw it doctors who do episotomies (which are incredibely common) use them as a subconscious way of taking away the sexual pleasure of other men – hum interesting.
After more than a year thankfully the orgasms came back and better then ever so okay – but what of our sex life – to me this has been complicated. Do you know the book Maternal Desire by Daphne de Marneffe? In this she talks a lot about desire but in terms of connections with our infants/children. I can’t say I agree with her thesis but I think this arena is really interesting and worthy of consideration. Something that I became aware of when reflecting on my experience of being a mum is what I called ‘it matter too much’ and even though my kids are now teenagers this is still the case.
I’ve become interested in psychoanalysis and this is an arena that informs the work of de Marneffe but there is an increasing body of work on crossovers between these realms and maternal experience. Jessica Benjamin has become very influencial in this area and she has published: The bonds of love, and the Shadow of the Other – pretty interesting stuff. But also the well know Nancy Chodorow (psychoanalysis and sociology) has published The Power of Feelings (much more technical) and the Australian author Louise Gyler, The Gendered Unconscious, Rozika Parker, Torn in Two and the wonderful book I think by Lisa Baraitser, Maternal Encounters.
I am finding that personal empowerment has been the best aphrodisiac for me but this is challenging because maternal empowerment isn’t something that our society/culture fosters. If you’ve got it – hold on to it – but, I think, beware so far this isn’t the spirit of our age. There is talk in the literature of our culture being embued with a tendency to ‘matricide’ which is the death of the mother – whether you, or I, go along with this or not – it gives you pause for thought. A google search on this brings up some interesting stuff but the concept has been used by Amber Jacobs, On Matricide, Myth, Psychoanalysis and the Law of the Mother.
to the love of LIFE …. Joannie
I totally agree that we should be talking about sex more – the love of it, the loss of it, those who want it back, and those who don’t really care. To me, the conversation has to be textured, so that no one feels silenced or judged. We all have different ideas about what constitutes a fulfilling sexual life. Jong’s saying here, younger women have terrible sex lives! And it’s all their fault! Well, who gets to decide what a terrible sex life is? Some women are ready ready ready to jump into having great sex immediately following birth; others are not. Sex is awesome, but we all put in a different order in our hierarchy of things we must have to be happy. (Although I also agree the whole “I’m a mom and I love having sex!” side of things needs to be heard a lot more – women are saying it, but it’s not part of the discourse. It doesn’t fit into the “those modern moms, they’re so unhappy, because of their bad choices. And the feminism” trope the media loves to much.)
To expand the question somewhat, I don’t think there’s anything “wrong” with being absorbed in your kids to the detriment of your sex life if a) that’s what you want; and b) it is not negatively impacting your partnership should you have one. I find myself almost totally absorbed by my wee ones – but only the first year or so, and then I feel like I “get” myself back. Both times, the exact same thing happened, totally unconsciously. I love being absorbed by my babies, and I love getting myself back.
I had never heard that about episiotomies. I had two naturally 3rd and 2nd degree tears (respectively) and with the first, I was in pain/discomfort for a long time and VERY reluctant to have sex, but in neither case did it affect orgasm ability. Has anybody else had Joanne’s experience?
Joanie,
Yes! This is what my story in Erica’s anthology, ‘Sugar In My Bowl’ is about, how after a baby a couple’s sex life is affected no matter how much they plan for it not to be.
And I also agree about airplay and media play for these issues. Erica Jong has helped to get attention for these too invisible issues. Mothers are sexual beings and that freaks people out. Isn’t that why men came up with the Virgin Mary? Erica Jong put together a book, an anthology about women and sex. Please don’t just look at the op-ed, look at the book before you judge her intention. It had 29 different writers on women and sex.
(And since I’m here, can someone tell me how to change my ID when I write a message? I want it to go to my blog. There is more about the book there. Anyway, here’s the link: http://margotmagowan.wordpress.com/)
Margot
OK I love this discussion – Joannie and Erin and Margot, thank you all for such thought-provoking comments and I am determined now to write a piece on this blog (soon) about mothers and their sex lives to see where it all goes. I’m fascinated.
I would love a post on the sex lives of parents with young(ish) children. I have no idea why but I’ve become obsessed with this topic lately. No one in my circle of friends, ever, ever speaks about it, it’s completely taboo. We’re all coasting along in our parenting roles it seems like there is like there is little room for passion, whether sexual or not. So maybe there is one small kernel of truth in Jong’s mess of pronouncements; we may be passionate but nobody is displaying it publicly, if it’s there it’s totally hidden.
OK, women, posted on sex/ moms on ReelGirl, let me know what you think, would love to continue the discussion
MM
Although to be fair I don’t think there is ANY group of women who really have permission to be out in the world saying “I love having sex!”
I think we’re supposed to want sex but not on our own terms or terms mutually agreed upon with our partners. We’re supposed to be the sexy, perfect body, man-satisfying women portrayed in the media not the real-life, differently shaped, with different sexual wants and needs women that we really are. Motherhood has the potential to force women to opposite poles either, I fit that ideal even less now that I’m a mother so I give up, or, becoming a parent has helped me chuck those worthless ideals and create a sexual life more true to my wants. I really want women to embrace the latter of those but I feel like more are drifting towards the former.
Because we don’t ever talk about it!
After my c-section, I couldn’t feel the skin below my scar and it freaked me out. I asked and the doctor said “Oh yeah, that’s a common side effect.” I looked it up and sometimes they accidentally cut the nerves to your clit, too.
THAT sure wasn’t on the informed consent form I signed.
(the nerves grew back, so I can feel all my skin now except the actual scar. But it took about 2 years.)
Eek, nor the one I did!
I’m sensation-dead just below my caesarean scar. Just above it telegraphs sensational really… oddly. It feels weirdly muted and makes me feel queasy when stroked (though that could be more mental than purely physical) – three years after the fact.
Any sort of contact in that area (even from tight, low-riding waistbands) was burning-prickly painful for around two years. My mother said her experiences were similar, thirty years ago. You’d better believe it affected my desire and sexual experiences. I’m still part confused, part envious of the c-sectionned women I know who say their scar’s never bothered them.
Seconding all these comments. Jong’s views are an insult to human intelligence and complexity.
The discussion of this at Raising My Boychick is good too.
Rosa, I had that problem too, after a c- section with my first. I was pretty devastated at the time, because contact in that area had previously produced reliable results:) It was like I had to make a new map of my body. I’ve never seen anyone else mention it as a problem before. Healing from my caesar also took a lot longer than expected, painful for a year, probably about two years before I could touch my scar and I still try and avoid that. After a home birth with my second, things were different again but the difference wasn’t so dramatic, no complete loss of feeling and none of the trauma of having a caesar.
Aphie, Milly (I can’t reply to Aphie’s post) I also had never heard about it, and that’s why I always bring it up in conversations of childbirth & sexuality. My c-section wasn’t at all optional, my son & I were both really endangered by labor (and me by pregnancy, so I’d been induced really early), so I would have consented anyway, but not having the possibility ever mentioned in the multiple-over-months conversations I had with various doctors & midwives about the various ways my high-risk pregnancy could end was really striking. I think doctors assume you know that it’s serious surgery and will have nerve repercussions all around the incision, but c-sections aren’t usually discussed as surgery, but as birth options/outcomes, so I think that’s a wrong assumption.
I had the experience of not really feeling strong/safe in my body for about 2 years after, as well – I think that’s how long it took to get my core muscles back, and that had an effect on my sex life along with the rest of my life.
Ha – Jong should be more alive to her own double standards. When my partner carries our child, is he using a ‘woman-distancing’ sling?
From her comments on attachment parenting, I’d guess she’s read about it without talking to real parents who are doing it.
From her comments about mothers and sex, I’d guess she accepts the stereotype that motherhood is a turnoff for men, and, as previous comments to this post have said, that this is the woman’s problem. Why isn’t she calling for more feminist men instead, who appreciate the amazingness of women’s bodies (not to mention our brains)? Those among us who are lucky enough to have found and had children with such a man know it’s a far happier solution to the ‘problem’.
This whole thread makes me feel really REALLY grateful that both my best friend and most of my coffee group were, well, if not “happy” to talk about sex, at least willing to share (some of) how it had been for them.
This is an interesting discussion. Blue milk, if you do get around to writing a post about motherhood and sex, I’d find it interesting. I’d even try to participate, even though these conversations always invoke guilt in me- which is weird, because very little else around motherhood does. Kids in day care? No guilt. Using a cleaning service? No guilt. Leaving work “early” to go get kids? No guilt.
But sex- that topic I have guilt on. Probably because I know that both my husband and I miss our pre-kids sex life, but I have no idea how to get it back. Or more accurately, I have no idea how to build a new one that is just as satisfying. What we have now is adequate, but not what it once was. So, I read comments from other women who seem not to be having any problems, and I feel- I don’t know- inadequate? Messed up?
There were physical changes after both births- one was vaginal w/no episiotomy but a pretty big tear. One was a c-section. Those have mostly settled down, but it took about a year each time. And as people upthread have said- it is definitely not the same anymore.
There is the difficulty of dealing with what feels like so many people wanting something from me, from my body, and not having enough space to myself. I am still breastfeeding my second baby, and she is in the super clingy 18-24 month phase. Based on my experience the first time around, I suspect this will get better soon. But in the meantime, some nights, after the kids are in bed, I just want to sit in my own space and have no one touch me.
There is the logistical challenge of having a relatively low sleep needs preschooler whose bedtime isn’t all that much earlier than mine, especially right now when I’m still dealing with a toddler who wakes up in the night and the fact that both kids get up earlier than I’d really like.
There is the mental challenge of turning off the to do list and just enjoying time with my husband, which I need before I can really get to a place that will allow me to enjoy sex. What works best for me is to get a night away in a hotel (my parents will babysit over night now and then). But that only happens once every few months, and I want better than that.
I could probably go on, but I won’t. I guess I’m just saying that even if you intellectually believe that there is no problem with motherhood and sex, in practice you can have a problem. I’m still working through that.
But Erica Jong’s finger wagging doesn’t really help me do that.
I tend to agree that this piece is more of an attention-getter than a…well-considered, rational discussion-starter.
There is no denying that pregnancy, birth, and parenthood can change one’s sex life: one’s voraciousness, one’s sensations, etc. But to claim that it categorically makes sex “worse” (or “better,” for that matter) is just plain silly (among other descriptive terms).
And the claim that baby-wearing is a man-distancer? Oh PLEASE, my body is not some sort of all-access peep-show object for any man or woman to touch whenever they please.
Yeah, Jong’s a trollumnist, like unto Miranda Devine and Elizabeth Farrelly over here. They’re going to keep doing it as long as their outrageous faffings draw the page views.
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Jong’s article is annoying the crap out of me. While I agree she is just stirring the pot I do think that her generalizations about contemporary motherhood bears some cultural weight. Especially around her quote, “Our current orgy of multiple maternity does indeed leave little room for sexuality. ” I’ve been noticing how mothers who fit into the attachment parenting box (or even mothers with multiple children) are made out to be these a-sexual and maternity bound women who have absolutely no fun besides caring for their children. I’d like to think that Jong’s generation provided women to be both mothers and sexual, be able to be mothers and have identities beyond mothering. I can attest to identifying as predominantly a mother, but also an activist, an educator, a gardener, and one hell of a sexy woman (who had amazing sex today while her toddler was napping, which has only gotten better after we had our son). I don’t see her article helping women as mothers have more sex, rather, I see it as laying on more guilt for women to “have it all”, but in this case, it’s sex.
Ugh, and is anyone going to point out her heteronormitity in the article. Wake up Jong, not all mothers are having sex with men, some mama’s are having sex with the other mama.
[…] and we spontaneously talked about sex for well over an hour, before I even had a chance to bring up the Erica Jong article. Lots of discussion about masturbation and libido and physical changes after babies and scheduling […]