You know I have my strong reservations about Elisabeth Badinter but she’s right on with this bit about pregnancy then and now:
“Thirty years ago, we lived our pregnancies with insouciance and lightness,” Badinter has remarked. “Today, to be pregnant seems not far from entering into a religious order.”
We have become incredibly controlling and uncompromising about women during their pregnancies.
“Some of them say they will not have a second or third child because everything is forbidden when one is pregnant. No cigarettes, zero alcohol – not even a glass of champagne for a birthday celebration. They treat women like babies – they take us for idiots. This idea infuriates me. For sure, it is not recommended to smoke a packet of cigarettes a day when one is pregnant” – she raises her eyebrows and smiles – “even though I did it! I recognise that one has to be careful, but one glass of wine in the evening is not going to do any harm.”
I very much like the idea of the ‘mediocre mother’ that Badinter argues in favour of… though am really not partial to the way Badinter so often attaches her criticism of the culture of motherhood to the child rather than to sexist domestic relationships and inflexibe work institutions.
So what, exactly, is rotten in the state of motherhood? “Before I began this book,” she says, “young women were coming to me, and talking about how guilty they felt.” She shakes her head. “To my stupefaction, this was the key word: guilt. Guilt about breastfeeding, about smoking, drinking, working, child care; about not doing ‘the best for your child’. ”
“In my own life, as a young woman, this is the one thing I never did – it was never even thought of. I never asked myself if I’d be a good mother, or whether I could meet the demands. Young women do this constantly now. In fact, many say no to motherhood altogether for these reasons. ‘I cannot be a perfect mother; I will not be a mother at all.’ ”
Those feminists who have argued strenuously in favour of mothers staying attached to the workforce have annoyed a lot of mothers, they can be willfully ignorant on the satisfactions of being at home with one’s children and also ridiculously doubtful about the needs of small children, but in most cases I think their hearts are in the right place.
“Some women may leave to settle their scores with their own mothers,” she says after a moment. “This is the case for me, certainly; I think girls have always said, ‘I don’t want to be like my mother.’ “And for women who are now around 40, who are often the most privileged and the most sensitive to these views, their mothers were more or less feminists, and wanted to have children and also a professional life. And their daughters are now saying, ‘My mother was completely wrong. She wanted everything, and instead she lost everything: she had to work double the amount, her husband left her for a younger woman, professionally she had a glass ceiling and when she came home she was exhausted and always in a hurry. And who paid for this? Me, her daughter.’ ”
According to Badinter, however, complete investment in parenting is misplaced. “We live 80 to 85 years in our industrialised countries,” she says, raising both hands. “Children take up 20 to 25 years, if that. Staking your whole life on 20 years is a bad bet.
“Nowadays, in the West, one couple out of two separates [about one in three in Australia divorce], often when the child is very young,” she says pragmatically. “This is simply a fact. And if you don’t have a job and financial independence, you are in a terrible situation.” Elizabeth Broderick, 51, the Sex Discrimination Commissioner of Australia, agrees.
Broderick has two children, aged 14 and 15, and when they were born, she was a partner at a large law firm in Sydney. Today, she regards one of her main roles as encouraging women’s financial autonomy. “Economic independence is what ensures women can leave abusive relationships,” she says. “That we can care for our families if our relationships break down, that we don’t live in poverty in retirement just because we chose to care for our children.”
What is needed, she says, is far better and cheaper childcare options, so it’s realistic for women to return to work. Historically, Australia has been very bad at this: until the introduction of the paid parental leave scheme last year, we were one of only two OECD countries without comprehensive paid parental leave provisions. There also needs to be financial recognition of the caring roles performed by women.
In the UK, for instance, extra pension payments can be made to grandmothers who take on significant childcare duties. Broderick would like to see similar schemes here. “What I say is, is poverty to be the reward for a lifetime spent caring?” she asks. “Unless we elevate women’s status as being more than ‘just carers’, we won’t enable them to have strong economic independence across their lifetimes.”
‘mother guilt’ is an age old concept.
but yes, the focus on pregnant women these days giving up absolutely everything (various foods, all alcohol etc) is stifling.
I disagree. I think mother guilt is entirely new. I don’t think mothers all through different cultures in history felt guilty about their parenting. Of course, infant mortality was higher, and less effort invested in keeping children alive. Or mothers just did what they had to do and didn’t examine their feelings about their parenting. Certainly my own mother, who had seven kids, never felt guilty.
when I studied German Literature many moons ago ‘mother guilt’ was a theme all of it’s own, going right back in time. Surely it can’t be only a germanic thing?
I don’t understand the assumption that paid work is satisifying, I know some lucky people have jobs they love, but the majority are wage slaves. I had a professional job, but I cannot say it was intellectually satisfying, yes being paid for the work I did was great, but I love the freedom of being at home with my daughter, it may at times be a little boring, but no more so than paid work and I am spending my day with someone I love, doing a job which has some value other than commercial.
TM, I think a lot of times references to ‘paid work’ are references to *pay*. Having money of one’s own is very satisfying, and it’s hard for couples to treat money paid to him as belonging to both of them. Especially when they’re having divorces or fights or even just disagreements about financial priorities, his name on the check tends to mean she has to ask his permission to spend money.
The other thing, at least in the USA, is that people’s position in life is defined by their job. Having a job, even if it’s boring drudgery, means having a place in the world. Staying home doesn’t; it is perceived as ‘not able to hold a place in the world’ and leads to people ignoring you at parties.
Kathmandu, I think what your saying is part of my point. Even before I had a child I hated the assumption many poeple make that what you do is who you are and think it needs to be challanged. This is such a indulgent middle class preoccupation, when you think the majority of the worlds population, both men and women are doing menial work to enable them to live, and yet many somehow blame these people for being poor as if they have chosen it or it is a result of their personal failings. After almost 20 years paid work, I feel the closer you get to the big earners and the people with power in an organisation the less human decency you find.
I flip between your position and the other side. I am a stay at home mum and have been for 11 years. I wouldn’t say I regret leaving full-time employment or that I resent staying at home. I have loved every minute of it (bar toilet training) but lately I’ve come to this point where I have realised how much of my career I have sacrificed in the process.
I was good at what I did. My job was rewarding maybe not financially but certainly emotionally and intellectually and not in the way that motherhood could ever be to me.
I am in the process of starting work again, working at night and further study. Some days I wonder why I didn’t do more work in the my early years of motherhood and some days I wonder, why do I even want to go back?
I’m with you. I’ve been out of the workforce for nearly 12 years. I never imagined that I would ever be financially dependent on anyone. My freedom and independence were always important to me and I always identified as feminist. I liked my job and was good at it. But being home with the children was what worked for my family, and I’ve learned a lot by staying at home. Confronting. Challenging. It took a long time to get used to – it seemed like a parallel existence. Networking with families. Being involved in the community. Learning how to run a household. Cooking. All the things I’d avoided before I had kids. The basics of life. I found humility and compassion, I guess. Projects that help the community. I think I’ve expanded my personal interests. Found maternal feminism (I went looking for it!). Sometimes I regret leaving work, but we’ve been OK. Now I’m studying to be a teacher – a job that fits with the kids – and looking forward to earning money again.
At the same time, I absolutely want more women in positions of power, and support social structures that allow more women to hold more power, including women with children. (And I support structures that allow men to deviate from the extremes of masculine stereotypes.)
“…though am really not partial to the way Badinter so often attaches her criticism of the culture of motherhood to the child rather than to sexist domestic relationships and inflexible work institutions.”
Yes – very well said! Children, who are among society’s most vulnerable and voiceless members, aren’t to blame; therefore tossing around the “King Child” blame label as Badinter does, while ignoring the Real Problems (of gender inequality and institutionalized sexism, for starters) is simply ludicrous.
That being said, I do enjoy hearing Badinter’s point of view, even if her own personal narrative (no paid employment when her children were little) puts her squarely into the ‘Do As I Say, Not As I’ve Done’ advice-giver category.
Have you been reading this thread? http://thehairpin.com/2012/02/on-being-unexpectedly-crummy-at-breastfeeding
I remember having a conversation with a friend who unexpectedly became pregnant and worried that she would get judged for her future child watching tv (since she already got judged for watching tv). I tried to make her feel better by pointing out that she likes to watch tv (she is the friend who recommends all the good stuff to me), it would be weird if she didn’t let her kid watch tv. Also, I don’t recall my parents ‘playing’ with me and my brother a lot – I was a pretty solitary child. We did what they were doing (cooking, fixing things), I read and wrote a lot and did crafty/arty stuff, and I watched a shitload of tv… and I turned out fine… top of classes, 2 degrees, etc etc.
I have also been a bit horrified by the amount of things you are not supposed to eat. Sushi! soft cheese! I can’t eat gluten already, that cuts out a ridiculous amount of food. What would I be supposed to eat if I got pregnant? Nuts and berries?
I don’t drink coffee, so I wouldn’t miss that one, but I am the kind of person whom a you-can’t-do-that would inspire to take up drinking coffee while pregnant just to horrify people ON PURPOSE. …OK, that’s not likely, but I can’t see myself quitting sushi (one of my main trusty gluten free meals).
I like the Pauline Mole (Adrian Mole’s mother)’s approach to pregnancy: “When I was pregnant with you I worked an eight hour day in a pie factory, dug an allotment at the weekend, did all the laundry by tramping on it in the bath, wallpapered a terraced house, ran a mobile hairdresser’s after work and went out dancing on Fridays. I smoked thirty fags a day and drank a brandy and ginger before going to bed every night.”
I remember watching ‘Insight’ on SBS a couple of years back, when they had an episode talking about health in pregnancy (not sure if that was the point of the episode, or where they’d ended up)… anyway, I remember well someone putting a question to a senior obstretician in the audience, about whether all women of childbearing age should just be encouraged not to drink alcohol (!!) – his response was that it wasn’t necessary, as “nature has a pretty good way of discouraging much alcohol intake in pregnant women: its called morning sickness”.
It stuck with me as an uncommonly sensible response!
I had my first child 9 years ago and was in my early 20s and was soooo casual about things like what I could eat during pregnancy, little kids watching tv, and every thing in between, compared to how fussy and worried I am about everything now in my early thirties with a third baby. I always noticed how the older mothers (at playgroup, etc) were much more uptight about their babies and being a mother, and now I find myself being one of them! Of course having the internet doesn’t help in that way because now you can look up every nagging potential problem and get even more worried.
What really annoys me is that latest govt posters about breastfeeding which say ‘do not drink’, which is overkill -0 the amount of alcohol that gets into breastmilk from one drink is negligable.
Anyway – their brochure says one drink is fine, but says they say ‘no drinking’ as women might not understand the more subtle message that a small amount of alcohol is fine.
how stupid do they think women are???
I love the phrase “mediocre mother” . . . though by the current standards of perfection, even mediocre today is pretty good.
I’ve seen a trend emerge among a number of my friends, who give up almost all of their personal interests after having kids . . . not just their job. They seem happily married, but I do worry about what will happen to their sense of self after the children are grown.
I understand that in France the health sysytem suggests that pregnant women try not to drink more than half a litre of wine a day – (that’s about 2/3rds of a bottle).
Hendo: to set one myth to rest: sushi has never been off the menu even in the most restrictive rulesets – it’s raw fish that can occasionally be an issue. Put whatever else you like in your sushi (should you ever be in that position), and enjoy! (Similarly, pasteurised soft cheeses carry virtually zero risk of Listeria – probably about the same or less than salad vegetables, I’d estimate, and I don’t think anyone’s recommended giving up salad yet.)
Even unpasteurised soft cheeses and deli meats are fine if you cook them really well to steaming temps throughout before eating. Just ask the home-cooked ham and brie pizzas I ate while pregnant…
Lauredhel, this is what I suspected, but I have friends who refused to eat :any: sushi and :any: soft cheese or deli meats, and not having had the urgency of being pregnant myself, I hadn’t looked it up. I don’t normally eat the raw stuff. Jolly good. To do list: take up drinking coffee… hehehe.
Even coffee… the last almost-half-decent study I saw on coffee and stillbirth (which was the big PANIC at the time) showed that _maybe_ there was a very slight increase in risk over eight cups per day (correlation not causation; obviously, this wasn’t a prospective controlled interventional trial). Adjustment for smoking and alcohol weakened the correlation to pretty much statistically insignificant levels; and the didn’t control for diet/nutrition, eating disorders, or other drug use! There was also a slight increase in risk at the zero intake level, with 1-3 cups being the lowest risk group.
My understanding was that the risk is of of listeria in the refrigerators where such food is kept. So, sushi is fine if you make it fresh and eat it and know where the components came from. Soft cheese is fine when first opened but becomes risky after storage in the fridge etc.
Salad is on the ‘don’t eat’ list. You’re only allowed to not panic about eating salad if you have bought all the ingredients, transported, stored, and washed them correctly, and it is eaten within like two hours of being made.
Sushi is also on the ‘don’t eat’ list, not just because of the raw fish business, but because rice is one of those high-risk foods, if it has been handled incorrectly or has been sitting out for too long (like in a display case at your local sushi chain store). If you make it yourself and eat it that day it’s ‘ok’ but of course god forbid you want to make your own egg-yolk mayo to go with it.
I am 30 weeks pregnant. Intellectually I know the risks are small but I just *cannot* bring myself to eat any of these ‘don’t eat’ things. I felt ill looking at stir-fry I’d made last night because I had carried the chicken breast home on the bus the day before, a 20-min trip in my unrefrigerated handbag (since then, it had been in the freezer and was defrosted safely and very well-cooked. But still I felt unsafe). So what did I eat instead? Safe, unsalmonella-ed, completely fucking unnutritious ‘easy mac and cheese’ shit out of a box. You should see my face when I have to eat food at someone else’s house, I am miserable and am sure that they are going to poison me and my baby will die and it will be all my fault for putting listeria in my mouth.
Uh sorry I see others have said similar things below. I just… need to vent I guess…
ONly 10 weeks to go Jess!
Seriously – I went by the old lists – avoid soft cheese (altho they now sAY ANYTHIGN MADE IN aUSTRALIA AND PASTEURISED IS FINE ANYWAY), avoid soft serve ice cream, avoid pre made salads sitting in a buffet tray – especially potato or pasta salad with creamy sauce, and avoid cold deli meat.
Beyond that go crazy.
And if taking food home on the bus stresses you, get a chiller bag, or buy something frozen to take in the same bag.
these banned food lists are going out of control and it has got to the point that the only thing you can eat at a food court is macdonalds or hot chips – while avoiding the healthy salad sandwich – crazy stuff.
Sushi is on the ‘dangerous’ list, due to rice, not just raw fish. It is ok if you have just made it yourself, but otherwise it is on the list. As is salad leaves (due to the water they may have been washed in, and even strawberries, apparently due to the tiny seeds, which could be harbouring agricultural dirt….
the foods to avoid during pregnancy lists have gone out of control lately.
I know that many of us, including me, have become so accustomed to low mortality rates in babies that any lost baby is a huge thing, but seriously if food is this dangerous how on earth did the human race ever survive? A few times when desperate for something on the naughty list I nuked it in a microwave until it was too hot to eat. Looking back I suspect it was more about my Obs protecting his insurance rather than a huge risk to me and the baby. Actually when first pregnant with both children and not knowing I ate soft cheese, left overs, deli meat, the whole shebang. Maybe I was lucky, maybe I would have been very unlucky had something happened. But for sure I would never have gotten over the mother guilt. I sometimes wonder if the early pregnancy that I lost was because I ate something bad.
The problem with strawberries is Listeria. Listeria is a bacteria that can contaminate foods. That is also the problem with unpasteurized cheeses and deli meats. Listeria is serious stuff- it causes miscarriages. In many cases, the pregnant woman would not even know she had been infected before she lost the baby.
If you want to get angry about not having strawberries while pregnant, I’d say get angry at our food system which makes cross-contamination so easy and does not fully encourage producers to take sensible steps to minimize this problem. I won’t divert this thread into a full on rant on this topic, but I’d refer anyone interested in it to the writings of Marion Nestle.
If a pregnant woman wants to eat strawberries, unpasteurized cheeses, and deli meats, that is up to her. Every woman has the right to weigh the risks for herself. But Listeria is a real risk, not the result of overbearing OBs or anything like that.
I don’t think Listeria avoidance advice should be lumped in with the alcohol advice. In the alcohol case, moderation makes a difference. You can manage the risks sensibly because you can control how much you consume. With listeria- it doesn’t matter if you only ate strawberries once in your entire pregnancy, if the time you ate them they were contaminated with listeria and you became infected. There is no managing that risk, because the point of control is not in your hands- it is in the hands of the food producer.
With that said- Listeria outbreaks are fairly rare. So @Mindy, you were lucky, but not extraordinarily so.
I am 4 months pregnant and I treat myself to one or two cigarettes a day. Once in the bathtub with a cup of coffee and sometimes one after dinner. This is a huge deal for me as I was smoking well over a pack a day. I can’t wait to give birth so I can sit and chainsmoke a whole pack of cigarettes before I begin the endless years that lay ahead when I will be lucky to find time to smoke more than half a cig at a time. That’s what I dream about at night, smoking a pack of cigarettes right after I give birth. And I feel absolutely no guilt about this.
It’s interesting to see the kerfuffle in the EB forums over that article – so many perfect mothers saying they feel zero guilt because of COURSE they do absolutely everything required. No soft cheese, no alcohol ever, constant happiness being at home with the newborn, and so on. The occasional voice saying ‘I am not happy, I do feel guilty!’ is tending to get the whole ‘You wouldn’t feel guilty if you WERE doing the best!’ response.
I have an eight week old baby at home now. I don’t enjoy taking care of her – it’s vastly less fulfilling than my job is while being simultaneously boring and stressful. I’m hoping it gets better but mostly I’m hanging on until my leave runs out and my partner takes over. I hated pregnancy (complications), I hated birth (vastly more complications, and we both nearly died), and I’m not enjoying this phase either. All of those things lead to a crippling guilt, and I even tried to do all the crazy pregnancy self denial things.
What it’s lead to is that by the time I had her, I had no will left to do all the self denial required with a newborn. Breastfeeding? Gave up after it got too painful and I realised that the hormones were driving me crazy with hatred of it and I was resentful of her. Cloth nappies? Nope. We even purchased them but I can’t deal. Every single brain-saving device I can utalise is being used.
I have this memory of being in hospital and it being 3:00am. I couldn’t sleep due to pain and depression – I had over forty stitches and was given a sixteen week recovery period, and was receiving an over night blood transfusion. The baby was crying, but I couldn’t get up out of bed without assistance. I buzzed for a midwife and said:
“I think she needs to be changed.”
She grimaced “Why haven’t you even checked? Have you been leaving her just lying there?”
And I was so overcome with guilt I didn’t even think to say: I’m receiving six units of blood, I can’t stand, I can’t even reach over to her because I can’t move out of this supine position, and I have this terrible fear that what she wants is food and that will mean more pain.
Yes, definitely the guilt is crippling.
I hope you have lots of support Goldenblack. I don’t know where you are, but in Australia you should be able to get help from a Community Nurse as you may be at risk of Post Natal Depression. It is normal to feel overwhelmed but if you aren’t starting to feel that you have a handle on things it is time to ask for more help. Don’t struggle on by yourself any longer than you need to.
@Goldenblack, please, please, please reach out to someone in real life and get some support. Some of what you describe sounds like postpartum depression, and you can get help with that. Even if you don’t have PPD, you deserve support and help while you make the transition to motherhood. A lot of us find it difficult- you are not alone in that.
I found my first daughter’s newborn phase almost overwhelming. I look back, and I was hanging on by a thread- even though I clearly did not have postpartum depression. Things got better slowly, but surely. I figured out that dairy in my diet gave her what I called “screaming gas.” I went back to work and felt competent again. I got more comfortable with being a mother. We figured out ways to help me handle the sleep deprivation. She started being more interactive and fun.
And now I have a happy, thriving almost 5 year old and a happy, thriving 2 year old. I myself am happy and thriving. I came across some old blog posts from the early days and I was amazed at how much better my life is now. Even with my second baby- who was a much easier newborn- I didn’t love the newborn phase. Not everyone does.
Goldenblack, I didn’t love the newborn phase, loathed pregnancy with a passion. Some of us just don’t enjoy the “blobby”/teenytiny stage, I think.
OTOH, I thought 2 was reallyreally cool. Lots of work and sometimes v hard, but a favourite time, so far.
If your daughter’s 2 months old and you’re still finding every day a struggle, it does sound like you could benefit from some help. I hope you’ve got the support you need.
(And as a cloth-nappying, breastfeeding crunchy type I say Do What Works. If you REALLY want to do the cloth thing, nobody says you can’t do both that and plastic, but if plastic’s just what your speed is at right now, go with it. Having a kid was such a lifechanging event, you never know what the hell your life or self will really look like on the other side.)
I am not big on newborns or birth either. I quite liked pregnancy, but I found tiny babies pretty unrewarding. They are scarily fragile and you don’t know what they want and they wake up at night.
I found around 6 months was fantastic – they start interacting – smiling, sitting up, grabbing things etc, life gets much more interesting.
And round about the age of one you can do all sorts of activities with them – music, dancing, gymnastics, craft groups etc, unfortunately this is around the time many people go back to work and can’t do these classes and groups.
If you can, i recommend getting out of the house every day, even if you just go for long walks, or even hang out at the mall. It really does clear your head and make you feel part of life again. And it is good practice for doing real trips to more exciting places.
It does get easier!
Goldenblack, I was where you are emotionally when my little one was a newborn. I hated it. I hated no sleep, I hated how difficult breastfeeding was, I hated the tedium of day in-day out diapers/attempt to feed/attempt to sleep, little help from the husband because he was at work, feeling like a complete failure, etc. Most of all I hated knowing that this was my life for the foreseeable future, and I felt so guilty that I was not over the moon for this little human. Looking back I think I had a bit of postpartum depression but other than my husband I didn’t feel I had anyone to turn to IRL, anyone that could possibly understand how I was feeling. But I hope that is not the case for you and and I very much second that you should reach out to someone, especially other mothers or even a therapist if you are able. There may not be someone who can understand everything about your particular situation but certainly any mother can understand much of what you are going through. That and getting out of the house, either by yourself if you have someone to watch the baby for an hour or two, or with the baby. I didn’t push myself to get outside enough but whenever I did (even with baby) I felt immensely better.
Also, yes, it DOES get better. I know it’s hard to believe right now and everyone keeps telling you that but it is true. The baby grows, becomes more active and (perhaps slightly) more independent, is easier to interact with and appreciate, you start to figure things out and get used to this being your new life, and the guilt subsides. You learn to tune out the people who make you feel guilty (IRL and online) and to listen to the ones who will support you no matter what choice you make.
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