I really like Feministe, I think the site produces some amazing writing, and I appreciate Mamamia for seeking to incorporate feminism in a mainstream, commercial motherhood site because that isn’t easy, but oh my god…
Reading these posts at Feministe on stay-at-home mothers, and then this one on the ‘choice’ to be a mother, and then this one on birth activist mothers at Mamamia – I just want to remind complainers that mothers aren’t touchy about mother-blaming discussions like these because we’re such sensitive little flowers, we can take a good, juicy discussion, really; we’re sensitive about these discussions because you are running roughshod over the truth of our lives.
We’re surprised, as feminists, that some of you are not more suspicious of lines of debate designed to isolate us and make us defensive. A feminist discussion does not need to make us all feel validated, it doesn’t have to avoid tough questions, but it does need to be honest about women’s lives, it’s part of the whole point of it being feminist. And that discussion should also include the voices typically excluded, that’s also the whole point about it being feminist. If your hypothesis about motherhood does not fit the marginalised mother’s life then it has failed to explain mothers. (And we can have conversations about very particular groups of mothers sometimes, like the 1%, but there’s a fair bit of generalising going on at the moment with this one which makes me think we’re all really looking for a broader discussion).
Some thoughts I have after reading the posts on the following –
Stay-at-home mothers:
I want to say something important here as someone who works in the field of economics. Some of you seem to me to be failing to understand all the obstacles holding mothers back. They are not entirely about the patriarchy, they’re also about capitalism. That is not to say that I think we should all drop out and live in a commune, but it is saying that if you are promoting some of the most exploitative elements of capitalism as part of your feminism then you will be missing the mark. If you do not understand how capitalism survives on (not just benefits from, but in its present form could not survive without) the unpaid caring work of women (that this isn’t just ‘lip service for mummies’, this is an economic truth), then your feminism is missing the mark. Self-ownership through wages has been an incredibly important development in feminism but it has not made unpaid caring work disappear – 50% of all hours of work performed in the USA are UNPAID.
You have some of the most inflexible workplaces in the Western world, with or without children, you have it tough in the US. But workplaces can change. We can focus feminist efforts on changing institutions of power to be less exploitative of unpaid caring work instead of just saying women must somehow ignore the realities of their lives. (Because how much real ‘choice’ about work does a mother get who has a severely disabled child? How much real ‘choice’ is there for a mother when the only job is a full-time job with long hours? Why are mothers supposed to think anything apart from raising their children is a worthy pursuit of their lives? And anyway, how many women are actually stay-at-home mothers for their entire lives? It is surprisingly low, so, do we need to suggest stay-at-home mothers are behaving like ‘indulged children’? Could we instead talk about how and when they return to paid work and what are the vulnerabilities involved? And, stay-at-home parents are not homogenous either, some of them are even fathers).
I feel like we have been here before – like, Linda Hirshman’s Get to Work, which had some important things to say, but which was also flawed – can feminism not learn from this and maybe take this discussion forward a little?
The ‘choice’ to be mothers:
Why aren’t feminists being more suspicious of ‘licence to breed’ rhetoric? Because you know who that argument gets used against most, right? Who are these careless mothers? The mindless mothers? Who are the mothers people assume to be having children without ‘good reason’ or for the ‘wrong reasons’? For selfish reasons? Single mothers, black mothers, immigrant mothers, teenage mothers, poor mothers, mothers on welfare, mothers in non-traditional family structures, mothers with disabilities, mothers with children with disabilities… I mean, come on!
Also, why assume mothers don’t already think about having babies, and that they aren’t asked to defend their decisions all the time? I get that women who choose not to have children are fucking tired of being asked to justify their decisions and how wrong it is that they are made to feel like deviants, but this is not an answer.
Birth activist mothers as birthzillas: I won’t go too far into this one because I’m writing an article about it – but talk about bullshit, sexist stereotype.
You know, the real reason why you should be careful in your discussions about mothers is not because we’re over-sensitive, it is because motherhood is political and complicated and a core part of feminism, and if you’re simplifying all of that then you’re missing the big picture.
What amazes me about these arguments (Jill et al, not yours Bluemilk) is that nobody mentions the children. I think that is something missing from all of this debate. Not that “think of the children!” should be used as a reason to make women stay home, but in all the back and forth there is very little discussion on what is best for the kids involved. The parents’ wishes are important, but children are people too. People who are often marginalised, and have little power. While I do not believe in the daycare-is-evil trope, I’d like to see SOME consideration of the other people (children) involved. I find it particularly flabbergasting in the American context when the quality of childcare is not subject to the same regulations and scrutiny to which it is in Australia and NZ
YES! I just wrote a response that that Feministe discussion and it was titled “Children: They’re People, You Know?” The part that just makes me so tired of this conversation is that my feminism is based on a deeply held humanist belief that all people deserve respect, and that includes children. I didn’t think that was so radical, but again and again I see children lumped in with laundry and dishes as if they’re just one more chore for women to “overcome.”
A gentle ‘thank you’ for this one, as I rest on the strength of your argument to not lose my cool again. How stupid to people think we humans are? Seriously, if it was simple, we’d be basically done already, like sewerage, traffic lights and geosynchronous orbits.
Yes. So very well put.
Thanks for this post. It’s not often that people ‘having an opinion’ or ‘being experts’ reflect the reality of peoples’ lived experiences which leaves me suspicious that they are pushing a particular straw-man argument rather than being genuine. The problem with ‘the media’ (even the feminist media) is that sensationalism sells – being balanced and complexity doesn’t.
Yes! This is so on the money. Some of the best work places (not just for women but for everyone) that I have worked in were those run by women. They were generally more humane, flexible places, where having families was normal and it didn’t matter what you did with your time as long as you got the job done. We could do with more places like that.
This! I am shaking my arse with joy to this post because it is so full of truth!
I was actually relieved to see quite a good take down of Jill’s O.P at Feministe in the comments, I remember when that site was all about strawbabies in restaurants btl, so it’s good to see it’s moved on.
But generally, it feels like 101 over and over and it’s strange because having a child is not a minority activity, many women do it, so why does so much of written word feminism fail to grasp the reality of it?
I have always been a feminist, but doing the whole wife and mother bit has made me realise how much I, we, need feminism. This is because I realise how easy it is to slip into endless personal compromises and end up not living your life for yourself.
Just a sidenote, I wonder about the whole “my job equals my self actualisation” schtick, which so many of these “oh noes at the SAHMs” posts have. Because I think that whole concept of allowing your paid employment to define your self worth is something to overturn, not emulate.
THIS. Completely and utterly 100% THIS.
Yes, I usually enjoy Feministe but Jill really seems to have a weakness in this area, and she doesn’t seem to learn either. However, there’s a few regular commenters there pulling their weight and they rock.
I think it’s great to make workplaces more accommodating to parents. But it’s unfair and unreasonable to expect the exact same earnings and advancement as your childless colleague who hasn’t taken long leaves of absence and devotes more time and energy to work. Not that all childless workers are driven careerists by any means (I’m certainly not) but those who are deserve to be compensated for it.
I also agree that people’s childbearing choices should be respected but that doesn’t mean you’re entitled to have your children 100% subsidized by the public or your employer. And that’s where every one of these “mothers need moar support!” discussions seems to be headed.
https://bluemilk.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/lets-get-something-straight-about-maternity-leave/
Also, advancement should go to the best person for the job. Taking the fewest days off and being the best for the job do NOT necessarily go hand in hand!
You are assuming that being a “driven careerist” will automatically make you better at your job. My view from the management side is that this is not true at all. I actually try to keep people who seem compelled to work ridiculously long hours off of my projects, as I think they introduce unnecessary and unpredictable risk. Tired people make mistakes. Mistakes make problems that can make my project very, very late, and I can neither control for them nor predict when they might happen.
Back in the industrial age, people actually did research to figure out the work hours that produced the optimal productivity- you can find the papers referenced in this post about the software industry: http://www.igda.org/why-crunch-modes-doesnt-work-six-lessons (the post also has a lot of good observations from an experienced project manager). I see no reason why “knowledge workers” would be exempt from fatigue, and my own experience both as a worker and a manager tells me that they aren’t.
So I prefer to hire people with lives outside work, because they cause fewer problems. (I wrote an entire post on this topic recently, if you want more details and example of a tired, overworked employee making a project very late: http://www.wandering-scientist.com/2012/06/project-managers-view-of-long-hours.html)
how about your childless colleague who has dependent parents, an important side career, a sabbatical, or a leave for illness (acute or chronic)?
Everyone has a life. Setting up our workplaces to deny that is setting everyone – workers, managers, customers – up to fail. I got to watch a friend lose his job because his founder-run company had absolutely no succession or substitution plan for a man who suddenly died of a heart attack. Planning the office around everyone, even the careerist workaholics, needing to be gone at some point would have been better all around.
Thank you, bluemilk! I love Feministe, too, but I’ve learned that whenever I see a title about mothering or children, I know I’ll have to click away – the contempt! The condescension! The posts, and then the comments – ouch, the comments are so terrible, it makes my brain and my heart hurt. I used to jump into the fray and represent for all the working mothers/ AP mothers out there (I recently did on one the screeds against AP) but really, it’s too overwhelming and depressing. The conversation is simply not intelligent enough to participate in – whenever we have to run around reminding feminists of basic feminist and social justice principles, and still get shouted down for it, we know we have a problem.
Oh, and don’t even get me started on all the feminist-hate for birth activists. It’s the only thing that makes them angrier than lactivists. It’s so profoundly depressing to me – those of us out there on the edges of what’s acceptable, fighting for our rights, for our autonomy, for basic human dignity, and not only do we have to fight every medical-institutional power-that-be, we have to fight our feminist “sisters” too who don’t listen to us and call us names. It makes me feel sick to my stomach.
Wow, great posts here, I’m so inspired.
I’m past child-bearing age now, but the anxiety and exhaustion of trying to provide for my children while being a good parent, child, community member, friend has never left me. I was in a minority for my social class and generation, and social conditions didn’t support my ‘difference’. However I felt sustained by feminist campaigns for equal pay and equal rights at work that did not distinguish women by ‘meriting’ their status. We were united as women, although I now admit feminist campaigns were predominantly targetted at improving conditions for younger women with children.You have to pick your fights.
I applaud your calls for feminist campaigns that champion ALL women. It is important to acknowledge the diversity of women’s experiences. It’s no shame to choose parenthood, to decide against it, or to not have the opportunity for it. What we should remember is that in our differing circumstances, we all share the experience of barriers that limit our potential. We have one fight, but differing battlefronts. Unity in diversity, I say!
Thanks so much for this. I can’t wait to see your hating-on-the-birth activist article.
Echoing everyone who has said thank you for this post. I wish you would do a guest post at Feministe on this very subject although I can’t see it being easy.
It is really something how your writing has helped me cope with mothering from the not-getting-any-sleep years to the wildly-frustrated-while-reading Feministe years.🙂
[…] start with, Blue Milk at her blog of the same name has an excellent post pointing out some of the privilege issues that are being ignored by the recent discussions on stay-at-home mothers, especially in terms of class and capitalism. At Spilt Milk, Elizabeth posts on how society always […]
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