But why shouldn’t she take some responsibility too for the rape?

I am going to assume the person who left this comment on my post Don’t get raped is a man:

When it comes to any kind of crime, I think it is important to make a distinction between blame and responsibility. In all cases all of the blame belongs to the perpetrators. However, in some cases, some of the responsibility can also be put on the victim.

If a man goes alone through an area of the city at night and gets mugged, I would give him none of the blame, but some of the responsibility (He’s not at fault for doing what he did, but it was at least somewhat irresponsible of him to do so).

If a girl gets so completely drunk that she can not take care of herself and she ends up being raped, I would give her none of the blame, but still some of the responsibility (She’s not at fault for doing what she did, but it was at least somewhat irresponsible of her to do so).

Everybody knows the world is not perfect, and that there are situations we should avoid getting ourselves into. And writing that the situation in question could have been avoided if she had been drinking less could help remind people to be careful not to get too drunk. Perhaps it can even help avert a few situations like this in the future?

I am going to assume that you’re a man and that you’re basically a good person but that you just doesn’t have a fuckin’ clue what it is like to be a woman. So get this..

Imagine we meet in a bar and you make eyes at me. Imagine I smile back at you. We get talking and you buy me a few drinks. We drink and we flirt. I introduce you to the friends I came with and you make them all laugh with some of your jokes. You start to feel pretty good about yourself. Then you find out we’re all planning to go back to my place for a few more drinks and you’re damn pleased when I invite you back too. You think you might get lucky here. And you’re right. We go to my bedroom and close the door leaving my friends  smirking behind us. But when we’re done and you’re lying back with your head spinning from the alcohol and the smokey room and the exertion who should slip into the room but my boyfriend. Now he just heard us having sex and he saw you picking me up at the bar and he assumes from all that that you’re the kind of guy who is up for anything. So now he rolls you over and holds you down. Why shouldn’t he? You’re drunk and you’re naked and if you were up for sex with me then why not with my friends too? Maybe you’re such a guy that you think you’d manage to fight him off somehow – throw a few punches, kick free in this situation. Maybe you think you could convince him to be reasonable, that you’re not into this kind of stuff. But then four or five of his mates enter the room; you can’t tell for sure how many because you’re lying on your stomach and feeling pretty sick right now. They all think they’ll have a shot at you. You might still think you could fight them off but I wonder how you’d go with that. What if they’re filming you on their mobile phones and laughing while they touch you? What if you know this video could end up anywhere and you’ll never, never live this moment down? What if they ridicule you because you might even have started crying in frustration by then and perhaps you wet yourself, being so drunk and struggling to get free, and what if they tell you that you should really keep yourself in better shape? (The possibilities are endless here for just how degraded and violated you could feel in such a situation. Defeated too. In fact the next time you’re reading a newspaper report on a rape try changing the gender of the victim and seeing how it feels). So maybe then you size it all up and think you’re better off not getting beaten to a pulp by five or six men and that you should just stay as still as you can until it is all over. Maybe the alcohol has really hit you by now and you’re starting to black out anyway.

Now as a man* the assumption is that you don’t generally want to be fucked by other men, especially not like that. So you know that if shit like that went down we would recognise the crime for what it was – rape. How could getting drunk or laughing with some new people you met or even having sex with someone possibly mean that you automatically wanted to have sex with five or six other people not of your choosing? But for women it is not like that. For us the assumption is that we were somehow asking for it unless we met some kind of endless test of resistance. Were we sober enough, dressed appropriately, virginal enough, not too flirtatious, did we say no loudly enough, did we explicitly say that we are not into gangbanging, because if we weren’t entirely specific about that point well then how were they to know – they couldn’t possibly tell by the way we just froze up in fear?

You say why don’t we put some responsibility on women for ‘getting raped’ but the problem is that we already put too much responsibility on women. That’s the fucking problem. And ultimately she can’t ever completely safeguard herself against rape because rapists exploit situations where they can seize power over someone else, which was pretty much the whole point of my previous post. And believe me if it is one thing women don’t need more reminding of it is that we could get raped. We already got that memo, loud and clear. The only thing women need reminding of is that it isn’t our fault. And if we are going to use court reporting to send out public warnings to try and “help avert a few situations like this in the future” then shouldn’t we be sending the message of responsibility to the men who actually rape and not their victims?

It is not a perfect world, as you say, but while we’re wondering why 17 year old girls can’t be a little more cautious let’s also wonder why men can’t be a lot more decent. Rape stops when rapists stop raping.

*Unless you are gay or trans in which case you’re probably seen as asking for such brutality too, just like women.

WARNING: the same person who left the comment to which this post responds has also entered the comment thread below. He continued to attempt to argue that women bore some responsibility for rape. Many others have argued against him and I will be moderating any further comments of his, but I have left his existing comments untouched as I think there is some useful discussion happening in response to them. This thread might be upsetting to you, please let me know if this is the case and if you think I would be better to remove his comments altogether.

Also, because I wasn’t around to moderate this thread a lot at the time it got away from me in parts and some stuff went down in here, like abusive insults that I don’t normally tolerate on my blog. However there is an argument to be made that men who enter feminist forums like this and who cop an earful/pile-on might get an enlightening experience – they might get to say huh! this is what my male privelege has allowed me to escape until now, I have never had to confront how ugly my rape culture ideas are because my views get to dominate all the other spaces I participate in but now I am in a space where everyone doesn’t tolerate rape culture and that feels new to me, I could learn from this experience.

660 Responses

  1. Years ago when I was still hitting the club scene, I had a “wake up” experience once dancing with a very nice guy who had the moves, the looks and some jokes. As we were grinding on the dance floor, I saw a bunch of his friends surround us, watching. Leering. I was pretty drunk, but alarm bells went off and I ended the dance right there. I didn’t mind dancing with a good looking stranger and having fun. I had a definite problem putting on a show for his friends.

    Whoever left that comment needs a wake up call. Women have this thing. This unfortunate reality that when we walk through a parking lot, our minds race for a split second. What if I’m jumped? Exotic dancers wonder this when they’re alone in the dressing room about to perform. Female construction workers wonder the same thing when changing in the male dressing room. Getting in our car. Unlocking our front door at night. Walking the dog. Calling in the cat. Going to class. Taking the subway. I don’t need to continue here. It should have been plain enough with your original post.

    It’s unfortunate that we think this way. We do because men rape. And they’re going to do it if the opportunity presents itself or not. Irrespective of alcohol, aloneness, orientation, age. It’s just blood EASIER when the “opportunity” is there. Easier to do it. Easier to then blame the victim. Easier to get away with it and have people say, “oh well. She should have taken more care and responsibility not to be in that situation.”

    What we should be able to do is live life freely without that fear. To continue dancing because it’s fun. Not have it ruined by a bunch of fools.

  2. Your assumption that I’m a man is correct. Though I don’t think that adds or subtracts any weight to my argument. Though if you think otherwise, I guess I can also add that I’m heterosexual, white, tall, blue-eyed, well-educated and was never excluded from any popular clique in school unless I chose to…

    I’m also basically a good person and I’ll freely admit that my understanding of what it’s like to be a woman is necessarily limited. Though communication is a good way to gain understanding, so let’s see… 🙂

    I’ll ignore nitpicking at some of the details in your scenario and secede to your point: Getting [gang]raped would be terrible, of course. But my previous point still stands: In such a situation my attackers would have 100% of the blame and a majority of the responsibility, but it was irresponsible of me to get that drunk!

    For the record: I’ve never been so drunk that I couldn’t handle myself or defend myself in a one-on-one situation. Not only would that be stupidly irresponsible, but it would also be a bit hazzardous to my regular health!

    And the assumption that girls want sex unless they declare loudly and clearly that they absolutely don’t want sex, is not an assumption that is shared by everyone. It is true that guys regularily need to press on through token resistance by girls, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t stop if the girl really doesn’t want to. I’ve had to stop a few times, and it’s not an impossibility. There’s even a chance that things start up again after a little while. 🙂

    To bring on a personal annecdote:
    I’ve gone home with a girl that turned out to be so drunk she more or less blacked out as we were starting to have sex. When that happened I got dressed (was a bit cold in her apparment), got her water a few times during the night and just slept besides her until the morning (Luckily she got better during the morning so we could pick up where we left off).

    If I had proceeded to have sex while she was more or less unconscious it would most probably have been rape (I doubt she would have concented after the fact) and if so, I would have been a 100% to blame. Not her. However, I will still argue that it was irresponsible of her to get that drunk. Not only because she wasn’t able to protect herself if I would have tried to rape her, but she even had problems handling herself on the way home (She repeatedly tried to cross on red lights and I still feel sorry for the guy in the kiosk who had to clean up after she bumped into and overturned some of the shelves with chocolate).

    Just as an insurance company put some responsibility on their customers with some basic guidelines to follow to act responsible enough to get their insurance paid out, it is equally valid to put some responsibility on people to try and avoid certain situations.

    Yes, rapist or other attackers can attack during many different situations, but that doesn’t mean that girls (and men too of course) shouldn’t take some precautions, like not getting wasted or walking alone through generally unsafe neighbourhoods. Men who are found guilty of rape are already told that they are responsible and to blame for the rape occuring, and punished (Granted, the sentences for rape is generally to low, at least in my country).

    Finally, 17 year old girls (and their parents) should be more than a little more cautious, and most men are a lot more decent than the men who choose to rape.

    • Which of the multitude of rules to “not get raped” are we supposed to follow, then? Is it only drunkenness, or being out alone? Or wearing the wrong clothes? Or flirting? Or talking to a stranger? Or just being in possession of a female body in general, is that what we’re supposed to take responsibility for?

      Because one thing that Blue Milk hasn’t mentioned is that the majority of rapes are committed by men who KNOW the victim. For example, the person who tried to rape me (thank god he didn’t succeed, though it is still traumatizing in a myriad of ways) was supposedly a very good friend of mine. I was at a party with people that were all my friends. You know, the people that I am supposed to feel safe with. Because I would never get so drunk that I couldn’t handle something if I was at a bar, but these were my goddamned FRIENDS. I was supposed to be safe there. But instead, one of them decided he was going to have sex with me whether I wanted to or not. And whether I was drunk or not had nothing to do with it, either, because he was twice my size and pinned me down. Should I then take responsibility for not being muscular enough to fight him off?

      And the funny thing about the whole thing is that I had been drunk many times before that and have been many times since. I have done many other supposedly high risk things as well, including walking through the city late at night by myself. Yet the only factor that was different that one particular day and almost lead to me being raped was that SOMEONE HAD DECIDED HE WAS GOING TO RAPE ME. Interesting how everyone before and since has managed to not do that, to take enough RESPONSIBILITY for their own actions to avoid violating my body, no matter what state I was in.

      • I’m not arguing for any set of “hard” rules. All I’m saying is that any individual should take some responsibility for oneself and take precautions for each situation one is in.

        A victim can’t take responsibility for a crime! The blame and the responsibility for the crime belongs to the assailant. However, a victim can also take some responsibility and care not to become a victim!

        Of course, not all situations can be avoided or planed for even if one does try to take responsibility!

        In the situation where you almost became a rape victim I can’t see anything that you did that was irresponsible. You were among lots of friends that you trusted, and you shouldn’t have to keep a guard up around them.

        Out of curiosity, could I ask what happened so that you didn’t get raped?

      • I was molested at 4. I write shorts and a halter top. I’m 40 and remember to this day. What would you recommend that I have done?

      • Why? So that you can use that as a reason to judge other women for “getting raped”? No, it’s none of your goddamn business.

    • on June 7, 2010 at 7:50 am | Reply Matt Ethridge

      “It is true that guys regularily need to press on through token resistance by girls”

      You pathetic piece of garbage. You need to press on through token resistance?
      Guys like you make me ashamed to be a man. Bastard. I have a two year old boy. How am I going to explain your kind to him? How am I going to explain you to my seven year old daughter? Because your kind abides. You are always around, smirking, and taking advantage, and then thinking you are doing right, and having the gall to explain why you are right, when you are so clearly wrong.

      Fucking garbage.

      • Thank you. For being one of the guys who sees it all.

      • I’d like to say thanks that your first comment was how to teach your son and not solely how to protect your daughter. I know I shouldn’t have to but when I see it it make me feel better for the next generation even if its just for a moment.

      • Why should you be ashamed for standing up for what you know is wrong.

        You give me hope, hope that there really are some good guys out there.

      • Thank you for standing up for what’s right Matt! And you will teach your children well. They are lucky to have such a standup dad! 🙂

      • on August 20, 2015 at 1:25 pm socialknowhow

        Ok, you obviously did not understand what Darsh meant when saying “press on through some token resistance”. Then, since in your head you thought he meant something other than what he really meant, you moved right on to calling him a piece of shit. Your kind abides sir. And though I’m sure it’s far better than the picture you have conjured up in your head of Mr Darsh, it is not anything I would want my children around. I don’t think it was a good idea for Darsh to explain why any responsibility needs to fall on the female in this situation. At least not here. However, this man comes off to me as clearly more intelligent than most of the rest of you and much of what he is saying is going over your heads. I’m sure that I will be written off as being crazy after making that remark, but remember one thing. We aren’t always as right as we think we are. Sometimes emotions and ignorance get in the way.

      • As previously stated not all men are rapist but you persist in blaming woman then threaten us with rape. Almost hoping our suffering continues. From this I can only persume from your own behavior. However if you woul like to sue me. My hobbie is represent victims of wcc. White coller crime. FOR FREE. So my counter claim would be your aqusations of nazisum ect also your writes of hoping rapes continues. However it is a fact that Britain is known as the capital of sexual crimes. Though this is centered around children rather than rape. But sadly that can be were it leads for some. You mock victims and the way you pointed out vulnerability management. In areas were a non victim would not consider. Because she should not live in fear. Was very chilling and echoed a rapist known to the police.

        I would love nothing more than you to be one of the good guy’s but your threats have served to incriminate yourself, further.

        I have a dossier of evidence that relate that behavior to a certain personality type. I would be happy to share some with you or talk withyou about my experience as a child abuse victim. Adult victim of rape. Or the intermarital rape and domestic violence I endured.

        However I do not blaim men or the professional who was ment to care for me as a child and paid by the state.

        I give thanks to my mother who lost her life, trying to save me from my abusers.
        I bless my brother who lost his life due to the extent of the sra abuse he endured.
        I bless my sister who is lost to insanity.
        I give thanks to my father who never gave up faith and who holds me when I cry.
        Who won’t allow me to lose sanity who make me KNOW not all men are bad.

        So we deserve rape in your opinion and im a natzi and I hate men do I. Best you get me in that court room then . As you promise.

        at least I am using my experience to help victim’s not mock and relish in there suffering. Just what do you do other than the latter

    • So basically you’re confessing to date rape here? You made a move on a girl who was so drunk she was on the verge of conciousness? You must’ve known it was wrong otherwise you wouldn’t have stopped.
      You belong in jail. She wasn’t safe with you. Do you really think she wouldve consented sober?

      • on August 20, 2015 at 1:14 pm socialknowhow

        Omg, are you serious. He said that she did consent in the morning. What, did you just read the parts that you felt like reading? Or are you trying to score points with the females on here?

    • on May 14, 2012 at 10:57 pm | Reply Rape is never the victim's responsibility

      The other thing you’re not taking into account is that ‘covering up’ and not being drunk does not necessarily guarantee you won’t get raped, or even decrease the chances. Rape is not about sex-it’s about power. A friend of mine was attacked when she was walking through a low-risk area, stone-cold sober, wearing a jacket, scarf and jeans. The only reason her assailant didn’t succeed was that she possesses an impressively large vocal capacity and screamed as loudly as she could-despite the fact that her attacker was threatening to kill her if she didn’t stop screaming-so that people a block away came to her aid. I suppose she has to take some responsibility for not walking with a male chaperone now?

    • on October 1, 2012 at 4:09 am | Reply JUFA.Asheville

      wow, you just are not willing to look at anyone else’s experience. also, sometimes people can accidentally drink too much. maybe you, in all of your perfection, are great at drinking the perfect amount of alcohol but sometimes drinks are poured heavy and sometimes people are given roofies. regardless, where a person is, what time it is, how much they’ve drank, what they are wearing, they are not responsible for a rape. at all. no, it doesn’t matter. bodies are not up for raping just because of an “irresponsible” decision made. check your privilege and stop it with the lack of compassion.

    • That’s a disgusting story. Why did you stay in her apartment? Sounds like she woke up feeling like shit and thought, “How the hell am I going to get rid of this guy?” Obviously, the only way you would leave is if you got what you wanted. How is it her parents fault? Were they there as well?

      • on August 20, 2015 at 1:28 pm socialknowhow

        How is that obvious? There was certainly not enough information for you to be making these judgements or assumptions.

    • Here’ a sernario for you dash. Your a size 6 after stress your partner, the man you plan ti marry is beside you. So you should be safe. Hes 6ft 5 and slightly toned. You left 4 dream jobs to care for this man after a moterbike accedent. You have nurtured him back to health daily. He can now walk and use his arms. You start to think about re-build yourown life. Re connect with friend , youve given up the stage because this guy felt so unmusclin in hos wheelchair. You gave up anything that worsened his suffering. So you find an amazing job.

      That night he rapes you. Next morning you go to leave and you cant find any of your things. Your in the middle of nowere an realise you dont know how to get home.

      The doors are locked and he claimes not to remember the night befor and belittles you for your reaction to an situation that is natrel between man an wife to be.

      Confused and wondering if the stress and life change is ti blaim. You feel unreasonable and wonder if you imagened it all.

      Yiur a realistic and practical person so despratly try to put it aside. Find the keys and your belongings.

      As the weeks pass the violence gets worse as do the rapes. Your to weak to runaway and no longer trust your own mind. Your man of your dreams is animal then human, or thats how it feels.
      Your athletic bady is now a skin an bones and by chance and you have erned the trust to be alowed in the garden and trusted not to walk 30 miles through various villages to get home.
      You cant wirk out what happening bbecause mr jeckle an hyde is really in your head now.

      Nobody has come to find you and so think nobody out there loves you because you must be worthless.

      your only escape comes when a new neighbour moves in and feels something is a miss. They pull you aside and overs to drive you back to your own home.

      Well mr jeckle crys punches himself,pleads injury and needs help.

      The brainwashing kicks in. You cant leave him, hes all alone. But you dont want to be raped, kicked, hit, biten headbutted anymore.

      Your reminded of your missing items .
      Suddenly you remember, who you are what you have achived, in your life and you pity him but to broken to care.

      You get home and this stranger can see simething really wrong has happened. They stay with you for a week as your a jibbering wreak.

      Slowly you let out a few details but the shock and discust on ther faces, are confusing. You start to rebulid an mr jeckle returns.

      Begging pleading but you ignore him.
      You find you dont fit in with your exrovert friends. Have nothing to say to the more quieter ones.

      So you isolate yourself, feel more worthless.

      Untill you take the courage to risk being looked at with disgust. You tell your sister. Who sobs and holds you close and tells you its not your fault. Is upset because they though you had made a love nest and forgoten about them.

      So who responsable here then. Well what a stupid person for being so selfless . How dumb to sleep in bed with the man you intend to marry.

      How pathetic not running naked through a village. After all there might not be a opitunist rapest, lurking in the woods or dark paths. That might not be as violent or scary.

      You cod locate a main road an there may not be a rapist who sees a victim, handed to him on the highway.

      there was only 1 phonebox in the village and that was vandalised.

      The first time though all she heard was the ring ring of her father phone, ring ring ring

      There was never a second chance

    • First of all you disgust me. Second of all you think you are Mr. Perfection? I was popular in high school, have long hair and blue eyes – people think I’m pretty sure but I don’t go around telling everyone on the internet! You’re so into yourself it is just sad and I absolutely see you as someone who would have no problem raping a women. I’ve been drugged on two occasions and somehow got out of the situations unscathed because my friends noticed that while I had had a drink or two I had stopped drinking to be able to drive home yet I was continuing to get more “drunk” and was throwing up; You don’t get drunker while youre drinking diet coke.

      I have been raped – twice – by the same person who was an acquaintance of my former roommates. When he raped me the first time I was drunk but conscious. He was the body building type and held me down the entire time. I was unable to move AT ALL. He later stopped by my apt – as he was friends with my roommates, got me alone and said, ” I don’t do one night stands.”

      I was barely 18 and I was scared shitless by his threat and I was so afraid and anxiety ridden I didn’t have the capacity to tell anyone until much, much later. Lo and behold he waited until he new my roommates were out of town and knocked on the door. I was expecting a female neighbor friend so I opened the door. When I saw it was him I tried to close the door but he busted it open and over powered me and raped me for the second time. He was in and out before my friend actually made it over to my place and he threatened that if “I told anyone, he’d still be able to get to me and reminded me again that this wouldn’t be the last time.” It was because I moved out of the town I was living in and away from my school and friends. I forgot to mention that I was sober completely the second time.

      It’s not easy to tell people either but I fell into a deep depression and my anxiety level went through the roof. I went to the doctor in secret to make sure I was ok. I felt ashamed and there is no way in hell I should have felt ashamed!!!! I DIDN’T DO ANYTHING BUT MAKE SURE THAT THE WORD “No” WAS CLEAR BOTH TIMES to no avail. NONE OF THAT WAS IN ANYWAY MY RESPONSIBILITY.

      You’ll probably say that I “shouldn’t have opened the door although I was expecting a friend” or that “I shouldn’t have had a drink at the party the first time,” but just like everyone else – except Mr. Perfect You – who’s supposedly never had a drink even at a party or have never in your life been drunk – I did have a drink, maybe two but I was aware of what was happening and tried to get away …. yet you say that all of this was my fault?!?! You’re a disgusting excuse for a man and a human being!!

      • Jen your so brave. Your a warrior and you can now be proud of your self. Non of what has been inflicted upon you, deserves your shame anymore or ever . Your rapists does not care of your suffering and will relish it. So you now take back that power by exposure. The very best of luck to you

      • Thank you so much for your kind words! 🙂

    • I get really tired of the ‘insurance’ argument. Women’s bodies and freedoms aren’t goods or property to be valued and assessed of their worth. But this is how men see us and so the insurance argument seems to make sense to them.

    • Firstly comparing rape to a mugging is just ridiculous and I really hope the (gang) rape scenario changed your perspective on that
      Secondly have you considered situations were women are not drunk but still can not fend for themselves? Maybe if a man has a weapon or if it is multiple guys so she can not fight for her escape?
      I anticipate a response that includes “why did she put herself in that situation? Why did she walk late at night? Or from that street or in that neighborhood?” Well you have to understand that in a lot of societies around the world this can happen in day or night , with crowds or in an alley , which proves that the situation may change but that does not change the fact that women can be raped at any time and at any place simply because of biology. And women know this so instead of adding restrictions to their already fear ridden lives shouldn’t we help girls be released from that fear and feel safe.
      Thirdly I have huge amount of respect for you and the way you are engaging and handling this conversation and I would like to thank you for that

  3. @woodturtle:
    The experience you talk about sounds very creepy. Who the hell stands around ogling while their friend dances with a girl??

    That my friend’s chances of getting lucky is greater than zero doesn’t matter to me! Sure, I would probably throw a few glances your way out of curiosity, and maybe a few more out of jealously, but I (and most men) would generally leave it at that.

    The “what if I’m jumped?” thing isn’t solely a women’s thing, but I think it occurs more frequently the physically weaker one is. I thought more about such things as a kid than I do now (For a caricatured view on this, look here http://xkcd.com/337/ 🙂 ).

    Furthermore, I’ll argue that most men don’t rape. Even if the opportunity is obvious. I’ve never blamed the victim, and I would like the rapist to be punished and, if the victim had acted irresponsible, hope that she will be less irresponsible in the future.

    If we could al live without fear it would be great. But again, the world is not perfect, and everyone need to take precautions. If you want to continue to dance, then how about having a few trusted friends nearby for instance.

    • “hope that she will be less irresponsible in the future”

      I was raped 3 years ago by my best friend. He was back in town and I was invited to a party to welcome him home. The “party” turned out to only consist of 4 people including me, but he was my best friend and I trusted him. I had some alcohol, but much less than what I knew I could tolerate and yet I can’t remember most the rest of the night and I threw up all over the place. Leading to the assumption that I was drugged. In any case, he raped me. And you want to know something? You want to know what my experience being “less irresponsible” has been? I’m afraid to go anywhere alone, I haven’t had a drink in the past 3 years, I won’t spend one on one time with any man, aside from my boyfriend and father, if I can prevent against it in any way. My life is still controlled by my so-called best friend, and my being “responsible.” This is not a way to live, it’s a life of fear, and you deciding for me that this is how I need to be to not get raped is 100% disgusting.

    • I have a question for you, how can you say have a few trusted friends around when you just told someone else to keep their guard up around their friends?

  4. “Guys regularly need to press on through token resistance from girls”???

    WTF? Token resistance? No clearly doesn’t always mean no in your book Darsh.

    Remind me never to get myself in a situation where I’m alone with you. I imagine that might be very irresponsible of me indeed.

  5. @Gappy:

    The word ‘No’ clearly means no in my book. So does several types of body movement and non-initiative.

    Turning away a little with a smile when I’m trying to kiss, or interrupting the make-out session for a while, etc., is not ‘no’ in my book.

    • I can’t speak for Gappy but that’s not ‘token resistance’ in my book.

      • Ah, sorry. Would you mind giving me your definition of “token resistance”?

      • Darsh, since you’re confused: anything less than an enthusiastic “yes!” is a no. Since you’re bad at reading body language (and you are. Literally everyone on here is telling you you’re a rapist), you shouldn’t be relying on hints and body language. Next time you want to have sex with someone you need to ASK them and only proceed when you get a “why aren’t we already?/hell yea/fuck me” etc.
        Better yet, wait for her to tell you.

        You’re not knowledgable enough, skilled enough, or socially intelligent enough to just be going based on hunches. You need to go back to primary level consent and work up from there. Period.

    • on June 5, 2010 at 11:42 pm | Reply geekanachronism

      No such fucking thing as ‘token resistance’. It’s either resistance or not. The smile as I turn away? Attempting to be appeasing so as not to launch recriminations about why I won’t just put out. The break in making out? To give myself a breather so I hopefully don’t end up overwhelmed.

      Take responsibility for your own actions – the need for this so called ‘token’ resistance is a direct response to YOUR actions. Stop pressuring for more and there is no need for the resistance.

    • Wow. I am a man with a very similar background to your’s and I hear from many of your responses here that you are super insensitive to people in your life and online — everywhere.

      There’s a really simple solution to your problems with “token
      resistence.” It’s called enthusiastic consent. When escalating with a new partner ask, “would you like this?”, “do you like this?”, “is this okay?” … Communication always enhances first times.

      Bedding a too-drunk-to-walk stranger and then stopping just short of whatever you were planning is nothing to be proud of. I hope a couple years have helped you mellow your need to dominate others with logic online and dominate partners with insecure pushiness in sex.

  6. Turning away a little with a smile when I’m trying to kiss, or interrupting the make-out session for a while, etc., is not ‘no’ in my book.

    That’s strange. It’s always a “no” in my book.

  7. Darsh, my experience has nothing to do with how you would act.

    It’s nice that you thought about these things as a kid. But I don’t think that helps you understand what women may think or feel on (potentially) a daily basis.

    And thank you for your kind advice on how I should take the appropriate precautions when clubbing in the future. Because I need you to tell me.

    • I’m just trying to point out that most men are not rapists.

      And of course you don’t particularly need my advice on how to live your life, I was just arguing that one always needs to take precautions.

      • on June 5, 2010 at 3:19 pm violent_rabbit

        Ok Im not going take my own advice.

        Yes, you are. All men are rapists.

        Because of thinking like your own- the idea of ‘token resistance’ for one- all contribute to rape not really being *rape*, to victim blaming and all the rest. You are just as complict.

        Unfortunate! But there you go.

      • I hope this comment goes to the correct location…


        I have never raped anyone. If I’m going to simply accept your arguments then I am at most an accomplice to rape, not an actual rapist.

        Perhaps my use of the term “token resistance” is not the correct one? In my experience most girls either are/act shy or believe that they should act shy, and then put up what I would call a “token resistance” to a guy’s advances. Such a resistance can be distinguished from actual resistance.

        And I’ve never blamed the victim! I’ve repeatedly stated that ALL the blame belongs to the assailant, but in some cases, some of the responsibility for avoiding the situation can also be put on the victim.

      • So basically you are saying is, people need to live in a bubble, not trust anyone. There is a big difference in taking precautions and being a psychic.

  8. on June 5, 2010 at 3:08 pm | Reply violent_rabbit

    @blue milk- I liked this post, very visceral. I enjoy this blog on the wole to tell the truth, I am slack with feedback/commenting though.

    @everyone elseI wouldnt bother with this concern troll. Same old story, seeing if they can stir people up while willfully strawmanning everything they can get their hands on.

  9. @Darsh… Oh… you know, I rarely, almost never, talk about this, but I can’t keep quiet here.
    I was 17. A friend drove me home in his car, so that I wouldn’t need to walk through a dark neighbourhood. He dropped me off in front of our building (locked front door) and all I had to do was to walk 4 floors up to our apartment. I wasn’t drunk. I was dressed in an ankle-long dress. It wasn’t even past midnight.
    I won’t go into further detail, let’s just say I didn’t make it to the 4th floor unraped.
    So, where is MY responsibility for what happened?

    And how can I guarantee it won’t happen again? Quit leaving the house altogether?

    @blue milk, I can’t thank you enough for those posts…

    • Sorry to hear about what happened to you. 😦

      To me it sounds like you took all the proper precautions – even got a friend to drive you home. I’ll say that you had none of the responsibility in what happened to you.

      Unfortunately, even when taking precautions, it is not always avoidable. And I’m afraid it can’t be guaranteed not to happen again. 😦

      • Yes, because MEN RAPE WOMEN. Far more often than you might think. What happened to me IS JUST AS WRONG as it would have been if I had been drunk, or wearing a mini, or walking home in the dark. There is no differentiation to be made.
        With rape, like murder, it’s all black and white. The victim is the victim. The offender is to be blamed and bears all responsibility. End of story.

  10. @ Darsh
    “that one ALWAYS needs to take precautions”… because if you happen to be a woman, you can ALWAYS run into a rapist… although, of course, most men are not… Jeez. See what we mean?

  11. Ok, let me backtrack here a little. Seems like I’m making people think I’m a troll and that I always think a rape victim could have avoided it.

    Let me try to restate the point I tried to make in my initial post:

    1. A rapist deserves 100% of the blame and at least a majority of the responsibility.

    2. In some cases the victim bears a little of the responsibility too, for not taking proper precautions.

    3. In other cases, no extra precautions could have helped avoiding it, and there isn’t any further responsibility to put on the victim.

    • on June 5, 2010 at 3:37 pm | Reply violent_rabbit

      LOL “avoid”

      GO HOME

    • on June 5, 2010 at 3:39 pm | Reply violent_rabbit

      3. “bears…responsibility”


    • It’s just PLAIN WRONG to talk about the responsibility of the victim. But I guess you won’t get that, because you are not at risk by just being inherently/physically weaker.

      • I don’t agree that it is wrong to talk about the responsibility of the victim.

        And though my risk of being raped is minuscule since I’m not a woman, my argument extends perfectly well to other types of victimhood as well:

        – Banks demand that their customers act responsible with their cards if they are to cover a customer’s losses after a scam.

        – All people are sometimes recommended to avoid certain parts of a city at certain times to avoid getting mugged or killed.

        – An insurance company may demands precautions such as smoke detectors be installed in a house before insuring it, as one of the responsibilities of a would-be victim may have.

        In some cases a victim puts oneself in a situation that could have been avoided if the victim had been more responsible.

        In other cases nothing the victim could have done would have helped.

      • on June 5, 2010 at 4:00 pm violent_rabbit

        LOL at conflating credit card fraud with rape



    • on June 5, 2010 at 3:43 pm | Reply violent_rabbit

      You seem to think rape just happens, like sunlight? Instead of it being the end result of a conscious decision made consciously using a brain.

      Um, rape isnt like sleep walking! Proper precautions? IT ISNT LIKE GETTING CAUGHT OUT IN THE RAIN Y’KNOW

      • No, rape is a crime that the assailant decides to commit. Just like someone deciding to steal a car, or to rob a house, or murder someone.

        And everyone agrees that it is a good idea to take proper precautions to avoid being robbed or murdered. Though it isn’t always avoidable. But the responsible thing is still to take some precautions if possible.

        In the same way, it’s a good idea to take some precautions if possible, to avoid being raped. Even though sometimes no kind of precaution would have helped.

      • *facepalm* *rolls eyes*

        Darsh, at best your arguments are naive to the point of ridiculous; at worst, you represent a viewpoint that borders on that of a sociopath. And I’m being deadly serious, not offensive. Your arguments are baseless. I don’t have enough time in my life to explain just how out of whack your perspective is. Can someone please call in Dr. Phil?

        Rape victims are not in any way responsible for being raped. They bear no responsibility whatsoever. None. Nada. Period. As with any crime, we should all be able to live freely in society without any fear of crime. Unfortunately, we can’t because there are bad people out there. Yes, people take all sorts of precautions in life like home security, having a car alarm, carrying a mace, but even with all the precautions in the world; as long as there are criminals on the streets, people will unfortunately still be innocent victims of crime.

        I think there is one fundamental point that you are missing though. Let’s flip it around a different way. Let’s say that a girl is raped, and it turns out that she was doing all the things on your ‘how to get raped list’ – she was blind drunk, she was walking home along at night through a bad neighborhood, and she was wearing a mini skirt and low-cut top. Therefore, in your view, she ‘bears some responsibility’ for what happened to her. The question is this; (i) did she deserve to be raped? And (ii) given that she has already been raped, and is now going through physical and emotional hell, how helpful would it be for her to live in a society that considered her to be responsible for her rape? And (iii) if she did live in such a society, would she be likely to report her rape to the police, knowing that she would be considered to be responsible?

        It is imperative that rape victims are treated with respect and concern, that they are believed, and that they are not held in any way responsible for what has happened to them. Otherwise (and this is not the main reason, but I’m trying to appeal to your logic), rapists will not be held to account, and they will go on to rape again, and again. So, even if you still think they bear responsibility, my point is that this kind of viewpoint is not helpful in the fight for a rape free society.

        Question – if a child is raped by their own parent, does the child bear the responsibility?

      • on June 5, 2010 at 4:02 pm violent_rabbit

        Like not leading him on? By dressing sexy, making eye contact, walking home from work at night? Right!


        GO HOME



    • the only way you can “avoid” being raped us staying home forever…and even then some creep could be watching your house and know you never leave, break in and rape! if you were a women that has been raped or attacked to be raped you’d know what its like. I totally understand the taking some responsibility in some situations, for example me accepting a ride from a stranger.. yet that still doesn’t give him the OK. some men are wierd. I have a High school friend that keeps asking me on a date, he’s ugly AF and I’m not interested. he initiated a conversation but because I replied he took it as I’m interested, even though I continued to tell him I am not Interested, your not my type, I dont want to get to know you or go on a date several several times…I got annoyed of repeating myself as he continues to say I know your I terested..wtf I stopped replying and u friended him. I think he’s capable of rape cause he doesn’t take no. he twist things to what he wants to hear. creepy.so back to avoiding…you can’t avoid, many men are sick.. you say some good things but you mess it up with your choice of words…just dont comment if you have no idea what its like to be raped or pinned down against your will no matter the situatiom

    • So a young girl watches pop video’s that, really, amount to mild porn. Dresses like ther idol and what there told by the media, is correct an proper atire. Well what precautions can she make.

  12. on June 5, 2010 at 3:39 pm | Reply violent_rabbit

    2. LOL “Precautions”


  13. on June 5, 2010 at 3:47 pm | Reply violent_rabbit


    nd I’ve never blamed the victim! I’ve repeatedly stated that ALL the blame belongs to the assailant, but in some cases, some of the responsibility for avoiding the situation can also be put on the victim.


    And I doubt that you will read/comprehend any of this but here’s a nifty 101 for youse.


    • I disagree.

      I don’t blame someone who got raped for getting raped. I don’t blame someone for being murdered. But at the same time, I can sometimes point out a thing or two that the victim did that was irresponsible.

      I believe there is a difference between “blame” and “responsibility”.

      I’ll read through your link tomorrow, it looks like it will take me a bit to much time to read now. And it’s already 1 am here and I need to get up early tomorrow.

      Hope to talk to you tomorrow then. 🙂

      • on June 5, 2010 at 4:11 pm violent_rabbit

        “I believe there is a difference between “blame” and “responsibility”.”

        Well that is cute how you make up definitions to words that don’t exist. Well done! Shows a creative brain and complete disconnect from reality.

        But seriously, read the link, please try and learn. You seem too willfully stupid to be for real, to be honest.

      • Here’s part of the reason we all object so much to your (stupid) belief that women need to “take responsibility” for “avoiding rape”: because those of us who have been through it have already blamed ourselves for not “taking responsibility” enough. Because we’ve spent the rest of our lives after the incident telling ourselves, “If only I hadn’t X. If only I’d realized Y.” And we’re f$&%ing sick of it, and we’re not going to put up with it from people like you anymore. Because after all of this examination of our own actions that we have done, after all this beating OURSELVES up that we have done, we have come to the realization that there was NOTHING WE COULD DO. Because it wasn’t OUR conscious decision to BE RAPED; it was HIS conscious decision to RAPE US.

        Here’s the other part of the reason we all object so much to your (utterly ridiculous and infinitely insulting) belief that women need to “take responsibility” for “avoiding rape”: http://www.crisisconnectioninc.org/pdf/undetected_rapist.pdf Read the whole thing, but especially the last bullet point under “these undetected rapists” on the 3rd page. Here, I’ll even copy it for you just to make sure you see it: “These undetected rapists…use alcohol deliberately to render victims more vulnerable to attack, or completely unconscious.” I would then add that doing so also makes it so that people like YOU will then give them a free pass because you are too busy looking at the woman’s (innocent) actions to consider the idea that these men do this with a specific goal in mind, which is to RAPE, and which the woman cannot avoid because she’s NOT F%^$ING PSYCHIC.

      • You say that it’s a ‘good idea’ to take ‘precautions’ against crimes such as robbery or murder. And yet there is no victim blame – in robbery or murder the perpetrator is guilty of the crime regardless of any ‘precautions’ and the victim is not told they acted ‘irresponsibly’.

        Why then do you insist that a
        rape is any different?

        Perpetrator: guilty.
        Victim: not at fault. Ever.

  14. I think men react in such a way (like @Darsh), because rape (or violence in general) is not something allowing for much shading and rationalization. Rape is an emotional issue, which requires us to take sides. So men are much rather inclined to side with the rapist than the victim, because otherwise they would be required to show some empathy and turn against their own kind. Siding with the victim also requires you to experience and endure a minimum of their pain. It’s much easier to stay away from such feeling by victimizing the victim.

  15. […] 5, 2010 · Leave a Comment See, there is apparently an assumption that rape victims get to bear responsibility for being raped. That’s called victimization. It’s […]

  16. This is so interesting. I see so many similarities in this discussion to issues that come up in my 12 Step meetings for friends and family members of addicts. Many people in these meetings are women, many have been abused, many suffer from PTSD.

    I know that I felt, early on, that labeling those involved with the addicts as “codependent” was victim blaming, and I was not alone. I saw myself as 100% collateral damage in my husband’s addiction, bearing 0% of the blame and 0% of the responsibility, not just for his addiction, but for winding up with an addict in the first place. It was 100% because he tricked me and lied to me and 0% that I had done anything, ever in my life to bring this on.

    I have a much more nuanced view now. I can see that, while I didn’t cause my husband’s addiction and he is responsible for the damage it has done in my life, I was drawn to him because of previous dysfunction in my life.

    However, I can still see that there is a fine line between this and victim blaming; it’s clear to me what in my life is mine to clean up and what is the wreckage of my husband’s actions, but it is not clear to those outside of or new to working on the problems of an addictive relationship, who may see things in large swaths of black and white.

    I think the problem with trying to discuss a rape or abuse situation in the larger culture is that women have been and are so blamed already, that any attempt at anything other than a very clear right/wrong line plays into a culture that is already set up to denigrate women and contribute to rape.

    • @Mary (MPJ) ‘I think the problem with trying to discuss a rape or abuse situation in the larger culture is that women have been and are so blamed already, that any attempt at anything other than a very clear right/wrong line plays into a culture that is already set up to denigrate women and contribute to rape.’

      This is a good point – until we can establish in the wider discourse that women ARE NOT in ANY WAY to blame for being raped, we cannot move on to any kind of other discussion. But there again is there any other kind of discussion? I think there is – and perhaps it is about how men and women are positioned – it seems in nearly every culture – in unequal positions of power. Considerations of the unequal power relationship are at the heart of the ‘she was asking for it’ debate, but also how men are conditioned to react sexually are at the heart of the debate – women are offered up to the ‘male gaze’ – and we really need to start looking at this in much deeper detail.

  17. It is just Never right to rape any one for any reason.
    Naked as a j-bird walking down the street at 4 in the morning or sitting in a dorm room drinking with your friends, doesn’t matter.

  18. […] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Annie@PhDinParenting and EvilSlutClique, Connie Fekete. Connie Fekete said: RT @phdinparenting: Sharing: But why shouldn’t she take some responsibility too for the rape? by @bluemilk http://j.mp/ccdtDA #fem2 #p2 […]

  19. Darsh – I’m going to suggest that you take a step back, stop talking, andlisten to the people who are willing to take the time to tell you what their lived experience is. It sounds like you would like to be an ally and if that’s the case you’ve got a lot of 101 work to do.

    Here are a couple of links to get your started.

    Schrödinger’s Rapist at Shapely Prose

    Finally, A Feminism 101 Blog

  20. Sorry everybody, I wasn’t here for moderating. Will get through these comments and start sorting it out.

  21. on June 5, 2010 at 11:02 pm | Reply HeatherScent

    Wow. Amazing post. Very articulate and drives the point home. I think I love you.

  22. Sadly I have encountered just as many women with this same ” But if you didn’t do this… you wouldn’t have been in THAT situation.” It’s bullshit, it’s them trying to protect themselves from seeing the truth, how common rape is and how at risk all of us are. If they can find fault with what we did before we got raped then they can NOT do it and they will be safe. It’s easier to blame ( and Darsh that IS what you are doing) the victim then to absorb some of their pain, some of their loss of control, some of their long road of recovery. It took me years to learn a very simple thing ” I didn’t do this, this was done to me.” simple as that, but because of the frame of mind that Darsh and others continue to promote it took me years for me to stand up and say that I am not embarrassed, I don’t have to explain step by step how my rape happened. It happened. That is all that matters.

    • You mean, all men are rapist. That’s outrageous, false and even fascist. You’d liked Hitler and Mussolini.

      • No, gratefully, but we life in a country mocked by many others for spawningso many. The lladies here deserve to let out there pain. There right to direct it at a man who is nothing more than a dreadful example. Blaiming victims whilst adding to the humiliation inflicted. So please don’t make the mistake already adopted by darsh. Unless you’ve darsh altar ego then knock your self out. Or you could set an example of humanity. Like many of the fantastic men, have displayed here already

      • 1) I agree, ladies need to let out the pain.
        2) I agree, blaming victims is out of question.
        3) I don’t agree, “ladies” have to let out the pain, by taking against men.
        4) I don’t agree, all men are rapist.
        5) I don’t agree, that promoting responsability, is blaming victims.
        6) I don’t agree that someone who agrees with you in every point is fantastic.
        7) What you’re doing is called INTOLERANCE, and it’s the basis of segregation, racism and nazism.
        8) Don’t take it as a insult, just a call to self-reflection.

  23. Darsh, your views are way out of step with the other women and men who visit this blog. Your ignorance on this subject actually offends people, including me, so the onus is on you now to take some time to go away and read and think and educate yourself.

    I would thoroughly recommend that post on rape culture over at Shakesville that violent_rabbit has linked to and those that Carol has mentioned, and I would also personally urge you to read this post over at The Talent Show, giving you a man’s perspective, I Am Not My Cock: http://www.thetalentshow.org/2005/06/17/i-am-not-my-cock/

    I have been in two minds about whether to delete some of your comments after you kept repeating nonsense about women needing to take responsibility for rape (and for being women, because that’s the risk factor for rape?) .. but I can see that your comments have allowed people here to clarify some very important points about the way rape is misunderstood.. so I have left all of your comments but those are the last of their kind that will be allowed.

    Comment again by all means, but no more about women taking responsibility for their rape.

    • Why did you all attack Darsh? ?!!
      Because he tells the truth .
      You are all enemies of the truth and therefore you will never find the answer then devilish men will keep raping you until you realize as a society that your life style is wrong and start to find one that suitable to the good nature of yours

      • Perhaps you haven’t read all that has been said. Perhaps you should befor you claim so boldly that all we deserve is a serious assault. Sadly you portray yourself as, just the kind of guy, who has and will continue to rape. I hope im wrong.

  24. The difference between the credit card fraud, smoke detector examples and rape is that one is a cause and effect, and the other has very little impact on effect.

    What I mean is that if you do a b and c with your credit card, there is a VERY high chance that you will avoid fraud. If you install smoke detectors, there is a VERY high chance you will be woken in time.

    If you act “responsibly” there is very little chance at all of actually changing someones mind once they have decided to rape you. As many posters above have pointed out, you are just as likely, if not more, to be raped in a situation where you are doing NOTHING that would be classed as “irresponsible” but the original poster.

    • You just articulated the reason that was so put off by those comparisons! Thanks for finding the words to explain my emotions!

    • If someone has targeted you, it will be more difficult if you are always with friends. But rape in some cases is about a woman letting unfavorable conditions come to her, leaving her vulnerable to attacks.

      • You seem exceptional at such observations. Got yourself a nasy habit have you. Seek out vulnerability and exploit. A2 provide perpetrator rehabilitation course’s for people like yourself . First you need to admit you have a problem. I bid you good luck and healing

      • The one with problems, and very deep, is you. I mean, the free speech is the basis of society, and you’re taking a crusade against all the people who don’t agree with you in every point. And you should be more respectful when you treat me, because I’m not rapist. And by implying I am, you might be accountable for false statements and slander.

      • And your behaviour of deep intolerance, is the seed of segregation. I’m afraid your wildest dream is to lock all men in concentration camps. But not even then you will be safe, because women can rape women too. It’s not a about having a penis.

  25. I suspect that Darsh might be a tad voyeuristic

  26. It’s insulting and patronizing to think that women are not responsible for themselves and therefore need to take responsibility for being attacked. I think a big point was missed from the get go, in both your original post and this follow up, in that simply being female means being aware, at a very early age, of how targeted and objectified females are. How women and girls are seen as potential victims, hated as potential victims, blamed as potential victims. Just the act of walking along the street and having society’s approval to judge all manner of things about you, simply because of being female:object points to a basic difference in world view. The comments seem to indicate an incapacity to understand or empathize even in the face of your post trying to elicit those feelings. Perhaps, with more education and an honest attempt at empathizing, a bit of this can be taken into themselves and allow comprehension of what it is to evaluate every action for safety as a manner of being female in the world. I hope this person takes the other posters up on this opportunity to understand and place themselves in an uncomfortable place. This is the kind of thing that could be a turning point for understanding and compassion.

    • We, men, must be careful, too… We, as young kids and teens, are a most probable victim of rape, and even worst because our parents don’t tell us. Hey, be careful some motherfkr might be wanting to rape you. But we can do indeed do something to avoid such fate. And as adults, it’s just good sense going in groups at late night, not leaving with unknown people… etc. etc, etc.

  27. I’ve never blamed the victim! I’ve repeatedly stated that ALL the blame belongs to the assailant, but in some cases, some of the responsibility for avoiding the situation can also be put on the victim.

    Really trying to have it both ways, aren’t we Darsh? The nasty little “rider” in the second clause is the equivalent of crossing your fingers behind your back.

  28. I hate to say it, but maybe @Darsh needs to get raped to see the other side of this. It’s obvious there’s no reasoning with him in any other fashion.

    When a person is raped, NONE of the responsibility is the victims.

    An assailant chooses to rape someone, that is their choice, and they are taking away all of the responsibility for that decision from the victim the SECOND they decide to do it.

    It doesn’t matter if a girl or woman flirts with a guy, makes him think he is going to get laid, or if a woman is dressed like a hooker, or if she is drunk, stoned, passed out, etc.

    Her body is still her body, and when someone decides to violate her body, no matter how it is dressed, how drunk the person may be, that is still the assailant making that choice.

    Granted, it isn’t fair if a woman flirts with a guy to make him think he’s going to be getting laid, then backs out at the last minute, that’s kind of cruel, but in no way does that cause her to shoulder any responsibility if she is raped.

    No means no. There is no gray area. NO MEANS NO.

    • No-one needs to be raped. Not Darsh, not anybody.

      • I agree redballoon. I gotta say that this thread got away from me – I was away for work while it ran hot – and I didn’t moderate it at all well so there are lots of things going on here that I am not so keen on.

    • I am a man, and I know what it’s like being in the hot line, and I do acknowledge we MUST take care of ourselves. That’s the first line of defense. Don’t take it for granted.

  29. In many ways Darsh comes across as being fairly articulate. In other ways he seems to be arguing a paradox. Which is silly. To take a share of the responsibility means that a share of the blame is to be taken should something go wrong. To look at an insurance scenaro:

    A person staggers home drunk, turns on a gas hob without sparking it, goes to the toilet for half an hour, then returns to the kitchen and sparks the gas. The room explodes, the house burns, but luckily that person manages to survive. They have responsibility, they are to blame, and the insurance company does not pay them.

    Imagine looking at that scenaro and stating, “the person has some responsibility for what happened, but absolutely no blame at all,”. That would be totally ridiculous. The other follow-on of stating the victim holds some of the responsibility is to say that the rapist is not entirely responsible for their actions. Which is again totally ridiculous. To quote the prior article: “Rapists rape. Rapists raping lead to rape.”

    @Darsh – you’re clearly not trying to troll, or offend anyone (unless my judgement is completely off). Yet you are arguing a paradox. I can see why a rape victim might be pissed off after reading your comments.

  30. I’ve been in a situation where I could have been raped (I didn’t realise it at the time) but I wasn’t because all the men around me made a conscious decision not to rape me (which I am eternally grateful for). Then I have read stories about women being asleep, in their own bed, in a locked house, and waking up to find that someone had decided to break into their house and rape them. Or that their boyfriend had decided not to take no for an answer, or that someone they trusted and relied on had decided to rape them. No responsibility, no blame. They are the victim of a man who decided to rape them. Rapists cause rape, not the victims.

    Women should be free to get as drunk as they want to, wear what they want to within the bounds of the law obviously, and enjoy themselves as much as they wish to without some arsehole deciding to rape them because they are too drunk to fight back, or because they wore a short skirt or because they laughed a little too loud or too long with their girlfriends and were clearly having fun without a man.

    Do you really want to ally yourself with men like that. Men who are so insecure that they find women enjoying themselves threatening? That prey on women who are drunk? We know that a small number of men commit the vast majority of rapes. When you say that the victim bears some of the responsibility those men think that you agree with them. They think you are like them. Some of them may even think that you are one of them. Is that what you really want?

  31. Darsh, this is especially for you. It’s a post written by Kate Harding which has had thousands of links to it, a classic of the genre. Money quote:

    Cause the thing is, you and the guys you hang out with may not really mean anything by it when you talk about crazy bitches and dumb sluts and heh-heh-I’d-hit-that and you just can’t reason with them and you can’t live with ‘em can’t shoot ‘em and she’s obviously only dressed like that because she wants to get laid and if they can’t stand the heat they should get out of the kitchen and if they can’t play by the rules they don’t belong here and if they can’t take a little teasing they should quit and heh heh they’re only good for fucking and cleaning and they’re not fit to be leaders and they’re too emotional to run a business and they just want to get their hands on our money and if they’d just stop overreacting and telling themselves they’re victims they’d realize they actually have all the power in this society and white men aren’t even allowed to do anything anymore and and and…

    I get that you don’t really mean that shit. I get that you’re just talking out your ass.

    But please listen, and please trust me on this one: you have probably, at some point in your life, engaged in that kind of talk with a man who really, truly hates women–to the extent of having beaten and/or raped at least one. And you probably didn’t know which one he was.

    And that guy? Thought you were on his side.

  32. I’ve worked as a psychologist in a forensic treatment setting. Men who rape and have been caught, have said to me (and it’s in the research too), that the major tactic for committing sexual assault and getting away with it, is to ensure the person being raped believes they are actually the one responsible for what was done to them. If a rapist can do this they are extremely clever, because the chances of them getting caught are slim. They will choose their victims carefully generally those they think are more likely to take responsibility for the rape they are going to commit. They will groom their victims if needed – those they have power over, children, people with intellectual disability and vulnerable others are likely targets. The rapes they commit are well thought out and planned – they don’t just happen.

    In working with those who have been raped – the large part of the job is in assiting them to not get invited into self-blame – this can be very difficult. I think the darsh viewpoint, unfortunately pervades social consciousness – supporting self-blame for victims of rape.

    Thanks everyone for taking a stand on this and placing the blame 100% at the feet of perpetrators … silence is collusion.

    • When you tell someone “be safe, but it’s not your fault” you are doing exactly what Dersh was trying to do. You are drawing a mental distinction between blame and responsibility. Nothing more and nothing less.

      As a psychologist, you should recognize that most of the reactions to Dersh here in these comments are not reactions to the content of his message.

  33. Just as an aside, I get just as annoyed that the victim is considered to hold some responsibility in a robbery where they haven’t locked their doors or installed window locks or whatever. As well as the already mentioned limitations of the analogy, as far as the analogy holds, I find that I use it to conclude that robbery victims should also not be held responsible because they didn’t turn their home/car/person into a fortress.

  34. “You say why don’t we put some responsibility on women for ‘getting raped’ but the problem is that we already put too much responsibility on women. That’s the fucking problem. And ultimately she can’t ever completely safeguard herself against rape because rapists exploit situations where they can seize power over someone else, which was pretty much the whole point of my previous post. And believe me if it is one thing women don’t need more reminding of it is that we could get raped.”

    “It is not a perfect world, as you say, but while we’re wondering why 17 year old girls can’t be a little more cautious let’s also wonder why men can’t be a lot more decent. Rape stops when rapists stop raping.”

    These two paragraphs really hit home for me. As a rape victim that struggled with self blame for years, using alcohol, drugs and sex to try to deal with it. It is so amazing to hear that people are trying to get the word out to prevent other people from making the same mistakes I did.

    I have also joined the battle to try to have my voice heard. Please check out and comment on my blog. More input is always appreciated

    It is not a perfect world, as you say, but while we’re wondering why 17 year old girls can’t be a little more cautious let’s also wonder why men can’t be a lot more decent. Rape stops when rapists stop raping.

  35. That’s a great post – you manage to say so much and say it so convincingly. I think the only reason Darsh isn’t convinced is that he’s gotten confused about the concept of responsibility. Sure, we’re responsible for our behaviour and sometimes we act irresponsibly. But we can only be responsible for what we do. And our responsibility for what we do is not in any way connected to our assessment of what somebody else did. So if the rape was a oint action, which clearly it is not, then it would be worth talking of the responsibilities of the person raped. Because a rape is solely the act of the rapist, the only responsibilities that should be taken into account, are those of the rapist. It’s easy to get stuck into a confusion like this one. But I think when you’re dealing with something as serious as rape, it’s also good not to be too stubborn! Didn’t mean to sound patronizing Darsh. Hold on, yes I did!

  36. sorry I am new to blogging, unsure of what is happening, but just click on my name to check out my blog I think. Thank you

  37. Wow. Lots of new comments!

    Unfortunately, it seems that time ran out on me today. I really wish to reply as I find it a bit rude to leave in the middle of a discussion, so please forgive me for taking some time in answering. My time is limited, so it may take some time (maybe days) to answer. When I do answer, would you (blue milk) prefer that I post a comment to this post, or that I send you my reply in some other way?

    I also notice that I’ve received warnings about my comments. blue milk, I’m thankful that you haven’t deleted any of my comments so far (as hard as it might be for those who disagree with me to believe, I do put time and effort into trying to write good comments). I’m not sure if it is technically possible, but if you feel I write something inappropriate in future comments, could I ask that you please delete/sensor/edit only the offending part and leave the remaining comment be?

    I understand that in many discussions there may be statements that can offend people. I do my best to write my comments so that they will be as inoffensive as possible. I try to avoid misspelling, swearing and personal attacks. I also try to avoid hyperbole, irony and sarcasm as they may easily lead to misunderstandings in a heated Internet discussion. If I do present my arguments in a way that is offensive, then please forgive me, it is not by intention.

    However, if it is simply my opinion that is found to be offensive, then, even though I have no right to tell blue milk how to run her blog, I hope that she will see the value of an open discussion, and let my comments remain, albeit in an edited version if necessary.

    Finally: It is my intention to give proper replies to many of the comments here. There’s been some interesting comments, and the comments by Scott and Ariane especially made me think. I am also going to read the links provided by violent_rabbit, thewhatifgirl, blue milk and Helen.

    When I’ve done this, I hope to reply to you all.

    I’ll keep this browser tab open so I don’t forget about it if I start drowning in work. Until next time. 🙂

    • I’d like to back Darsh with allowing open discussion to remain.

      Clearly there are quite a number of rape victims here. Stories have been shared (which have helped provide insights; thank you to all those who have). It is a hugely sensitive topic. As I mentioned previously I can see ways in which a rape victim could easily be offended through the comments Darsh has left. I admit whilst reading this blog post I felt hugely uncomfortable in the mental scenaro blue milk presented; feeling that helpless could be described as one of my fears. I can not, and will not, claim to know what it is like to be raped – but I do understand it can leave the victim devastated for years if not life. Never to fully recover from the experience.

      That said I really don’t believe Darsh is attempting to offend people. I don’t believe he’s trying to troll. I honestly believe he is taking such an interest (as I am) to further his own understanding and to test his own beliefs (please correct me if I am wrong on any of these counts Darsh). The belief that women are in anyway responsible for their rape is unfortunately a common one. Held by both men and women. To counter this belief, to change how people think, to stop the gross injustice of rape trials, to allow women (and men) to speak up more freely about their experiences of rape, open discussion must be allowed to occur.

      If comments must be moderated before release to avoid all out offensive view points being pumped out (even by accident) then that is fair enough. Necessary even. Yet I must urge against banning discussion all together.

      • Thanks for the support regarding allowing an open discussion Scott. 🙂

        To make my own motives clear in this:
        Your understanding of me seems to be essentially correct.

        I only partake in discussions when I believe I can learn something from it, or teach something through it. I make a great point to myself to test all my beliefs and keep every opinion and value I hold logical and non-contradictory.

        If I find, or am shown, that any of my arguments are illogical or contradictory to other arguments I would make, I am always ready to change my beliefs. I will then attempt to change my beliefs to a new “steady state” where all my opinions are logical and non-contradictory, and backed by plausible arguments. I of course expect the same from my co-debaters, as a discussion where people will not change their minds are mostly pointless.

        There was what I believe to be an illogality in the initial post that I commented on, that I felt I should challenge.

        With the counter-arguments and information coming in, I am currently processing it and possibly reevaluating my opinions.

        In fact, I was just going to read a little on one of those links and I am still up! Not many hours of sleep for me tonight! >_<

        Hyperlinking is both the blessing and the curse of the net. There is always one more argument or piece of information to fork into…

  38. Uh, sorry. Not sure what I did to make my comment appear as the fourth last one and not the last one. :-/

  39. I am not going to shut down debate but I urge caution here. Use the same respect you would show entering a forum for soldiers talking about their post-traumatic stress disorder.

    And absolutely NO asking people who are talking about their own experiences of rape to give more details or clarify anything for you.

  40. Scott, there are a lot of rape victims everywhere. This is just a rare place where they (we) feel ok to talk about it.

    Pretty much any time you are discussing rape there’s someone listening who’s been raped.

  41. “Scott, there are a lot of rape victims everywhere. This is just a rare place where they (we) feel ok to talk about it.

    Pretty much any time you are discussing rape there’s someone listening who’s been raped.”

    You don’t know, have no way of knowing, if any of the people in your life – at work, online, on the bus, in class, at a barbeque, at a family celebration… have ever been raped. You just don’t. And you can be pretty safe in assuming that a significant percentage of the women you come across have been, such is the world in which we live.

    • *nods*

      Add in the number of women who have been sexually assaulted in general and it is inevitable that at least one of these women will be nearby at any time.

    • As you both make painfully clear; due to the hugely sensitive nature of rape and sexual assault getting accurate statistics on the two is something of an impossible task. What do statistics even mean in any given situation anyway?

      I honestly had no idea that rape is common to the point where there’s a high probability of a rape victim being on every bus, that just walking down the street I can pass numerous victims. Applying the tag of ‘victim’ seems so ugly somehow. The entire thing seems so ugly, disgusting, and quite frankly frightening.

      I can only apologize for seeming to marginalise the number of people who have been raped in my comment. I had meant to make the point that of the people commenting here it appeared that the majority had been raped. If that is actually a reflection of society overall, then that is even scarier than has been previously made out.

      This is very slippery ground, and I am only human. Correct my ignorance when I do slip, point out when I do offend. I truly do not mean to upset anyone, and simply seek to further my current understanding.

  42. […] and placing blame on the victim, but completely pointless, blue milk followed up with this piece But why shouldn’t she take some responsibility for the rape? I found the comments to be a harrowing read, but I recommend that you take a look if you can […]

  43. Scott, that’s exactly how I read you, and I why I mentioned just how incredibly common women who have been raped are. Most people just don’t realise how shockingly common it is.

    Also, I share your discomfort with the phrase “rape victim” – on the one hand it makes it clear that we are talking about someone who had something done to them, on the other, it feels a little like it is defining some part of a person’s identity, which I vehemently reject (although that’s not to say that other women haven’t had experiences sufficiently life changing to consider that it is part of their identity).

    • 12 years later, I’m not feeling victim-y anymore, but I still have leftover issues that have not cleared and impact important aspects of my life. So yes, what happened to me definitely became part of my identity, and maybe, just maybe, at some point I’ll be able to let it go…

  44. Scott – It’s not anyone’s job to correct you or educate you. When you expect that your privilege is showing. It’s your job to start looking for places to learn. There are lots of links in this thread that you can make use of.

    I’d suggest you also read Derailing for Dummies.

  45. Carol, I disagree wholeheartedly, why not educate and raise awareness while we are here? Why are we even here if someone comes in asking questions and gets turned away?

    • on June 7, 2010 at 4:11 am | Reply violent_rabbit

      We have been! If he had bothered to read through the comments, I am sure that most of his questions would of been answered and there is a plenitude of links to be read. If he then still has questions after he has read, digested and comprehended them then he is welcome in a forum such as this.

    • Cassie, with respect, it’s one of those tropes that come up again and again in blogs written by people who are marginalised in some way – (some) men demanding that women make the time to educate them instead of doing a bit of work to find out for themselves, (some) able bodied people demanding that people with disabilities make the time to educate them instead of doing a bit of work to find out for themselves, (some) white people demanding that people of colour make the time to educate them instead of doing a bit of work to find out for themselves, (some) cis-people (look it up) demanding that transgender people make the time to educate them instead of doing a bit of work to find out for themselves, (some) straight people demanding that LGBTQ people make the time to educate them instead of doing a bit of work to find out for themselves… you get the pattern, I’m sure.

      There’s masses of Feminism 101 material available on the web: Finally, a Feminism 101 Blog is a good place to start.

      • Deborah,

        I wholeheartedly agree with you that everyone should do work on their own to attempt to understand any situation they haven’t experienced themselves, especially when trying to get involved in a discussion on such a topic. However, (and I’m not saying this to excuse anyone from doing research; they still should on top of this) a person cannot COMPLETELY understand the situation until they have been through it themselves. No matter how much research a person does, talking to a person with first-hand experience in the situation will always provide some of the best information.

        To use a less touchy subject as an example, I am a student, and therefore many of my friends at school are international students, which means they are obviously from other countries with other cultures. I do my best to be knowledgeable about their culture before I ask any questions, especially those that may be obvious or sensitive. Though until I’ve lived in their country, and have their heritage, I will not fully understand their culture, and until I’ve become an international student living in the U.S., I will not understand what they’ve experienced in coming here. Obviously, these are not things I’m capable of doing, so the closest I can come is to educate myself about it, and to talk to those with first-hand experience.

        I think that what Scott is trying to say is that he is trying his best to be unoffensive with the knowledge that he has, but without having been raped himself, he may miss something that is offensive to a victim.

        For the record, I too am a victim, but I am trying to do my best to listen to all sides of this issue. It’s one of the most frustrating, infuriating and touchy subjects out there, but unfortunately it’s something we have to deal with.

        In one case, I was raped, but when I took it to the police, they told me not even to begin the process of pressing charges because it wasn’t “worth it.” Even though there was solid proof of intercourse and solid proof of who the guy was, there WASN’T solid proof that I had said no, even though I had bruising and other damage to my body. I was told that if I did take it to court, the process of the trial could be just as emotionally damaging as the experience itself, with the guy’s lawyer making me out to look like a slut or some other type of “bad” woman, who was “asking for it.” The lawyer would try to find some way to explain away the physical damage, too. Then, depending on the judge, I could potentially face other resistance just for being 16 and female, and having had sex in the past (even though it was with a long-term boyfriend). Basically, I was told it was my word against his, and as much as they (the police) believed me, I would probably lose. It is terrible that this is the case, that a woman cannot even take her case to court, let alone with said case.

        In a second scenario, I was nearly raped, but thankfully, he was not successful. In this case, I had been hanging out with a friend, and his friend, and my friend left me with the other guy, saying he was trustworthy. This other guy proceeded to make repeated attempts to get me to “loosen up,” interpreting my disinterest as just being shy. At the time, I had my leg in a brace, and therefore limited mobility, and the guy was able to, at one point, pin me down by sitting on my legs and holding my hands above my head by the wrists with one hand, while he used the other to remove my clothes. As I said, fortunately, I was able to stop this before he got to his ultimate goal. In this scenario, not only did the perpetrator not take me claims (in his case, of disinterest) seriously, and I face the same issue with (some) other men who had heard of the scenario. I get made out to be a shy and loose, but grumpy and bitchy woman. None of these qualities accurately describe me, and I should not be judged by my interest or uninterest in men, and for defending myself.

        I tell these stories because I think it is helpful for non-victims to see what really happened. I think people need to realize just how easy it is for rape to happen, and how scary it can become, in almost no time at all. It is not something that is the same in every case, that can be categorized as a random act, done by a stranger walking down the street. It doesn’t happen with strangers, but it also happens with trusted members of your circle of friends. Above all, the experience itself is painful enough on it’s own; the reaction from those around you should not be just as painful or belittle the pain you have already gone through. Obviously, I think that most people should be informed on the subject, and be able to respond appropriately if a victim confides in them or comes to them for help, or even just wants to talk about it. People should do their best to find material to at least form a basic understanding, but I also think it is good to have individual stories out there, so that we can all learn from them, and see that it’s not all the same.

  46. violent_rabbit

    Oh yes that is a good point actually haha.

    Deborah I disagree with that arguement on the basis pretty much everyone can identify as marginalised if they want (even white middle class males-MRA). I think it is everyones job within a society to educate and raise awareness.

    I suppose agree to disagree

  47. Oh dear. I can’t help but feel I’ve been misinterpreted but such is the folly of my inadequate writing skills and an online tablet.

    My sole aim is to further improve my understanding without offending anyone. I read blog links; it seems odd to be here and not to. I’ve studied research. I do make an effort. Actually knowing what is offensive to a group however is an area I’ll try my hardest to avoid, and still trip up on.

    As of such I’ll return to the sidelines and simply read the comments from now on. Apologies (yet again) for coming off as a pompous twerp.

    • Scott, I think you’re doing ok here. Everyone makes mistakes as they learn about their privellege and the key is to be as non-defensive as possible so that you can be open to understanding your mistakes.. which I think you’re doing.

      No-one owes you the instruction, and I completely understand the exhaustion expressed by Carol in the comment above, it is up to you to learn for yourself and do the work involved, but I think you’re getting there.

    • Scott,

      Returning to the sidelines is the kind of thing we as men need to avoid doing when confronted by the privileges that patriarchy gives us.

      Returning to the sidelines is a -privilege- we should not exercise. Women don’t have that privilege. They can’t opt-out of rape culture, of being raped, of being paid less, of objectification, of being excluded from the political process, of being blamed, of being Othered. What they do is fight, write and think against that.

      The absolute least we can do is no get in their way by falling back onto, and reinforcing, our privilege when the going gets rough.

      “Empathy is not simply a matter of trying to imagine what others are going through, but having the will to muster enough courage to do something about it.”
      — Cornel West

  48. I tried to comment on this post earlier today, because it made me think about the parallels with how female victims of homicide are accorded some ‘responsibility’ for provoking their male killers (by trying to leave them, for example), while male victims are not (despite having threatened the life of the female perpetrators and subjecting them to years of violent abuse).

    However, my comment became ridiculously long and so I decided to make it into a post (which also became ridiculously long). It is over here if you have a spare half-day in which to read it…


    • on June 7, 2010 at 6:33 pm | Reply jennygadget


      That was an awesome post. And if you and blue milk don’t mind if I respond to some of it here….

      “By and large the main action that made them vulnerable to those crimes was the ‘irresponsibility’ of remaining female within our patriarchal culture. ”

      This. A thousand times this.

      When I was 13 (12?) and already sporting a C cup at the very least, I was a repeated victim of a voyeur. While I agreed – both at the time and still now – that the age of the voyeur in question diminished his responsibility / culpability, the part that was most confusing for me at the time, and most troubling to me now, was the extent to which my simply being “irresponsible” enough to be obviously female – and he being “responsible” enough to be male – wormed it’s way into my parent’s supposed reassurances.

      Clearly, he could not help himself. Not just because he was a child. (The one argument I thought had merit.) Not just because he was a boy. (No one ever says “girls will be girls” when it comes to girls being curious or looking for masturbation material.) But he also couldn’t help himself because I was so obviously a girl. The difference between the years before – when we played as friends – and now (er, then) – when he treated me as a thing for his amusement – was not just that he was growing older and therefore changing*, but possibly even more importantly because I had grown to become so unmistakeably female.

      I’m still not sure that my parents ever quite understood how much their “explanations” of his behavior translated – to me – to mean that being female meant never really being safe. Even when I was alone, at home, in my own room.

      Which is why I often react so violently to the victim responsibility rape apology argument. I didn’t question back then that it was largely my responsibility and not his to make sure that he never again saw me naked. And believing this – or, more importantly, having to live in a world where this assumption was treated as true and just – led to a extremely unhealthy (but often necessary!) paranoia, not to mention a hell of a lot of body hatred.

      If a boy that actually (usually) cared how I felt, and didn’t even necessarily have strong hormonal urges to see me naked, could be induced to treat me this way simply because I had grown (large) breasts, then what kind of treatment can I expect of others? If I’m only safe when I’m alone in my own room – and even then only after I’ve checked every curtain – then what other kinds of dangers lay waiting outside? If I have to triple check my windows in order to simply get dressed in privacy, then how much of my body do I need to hide when I go out in public in order to be even remotely safe?**

      *maybe. It’s possible he had begun puberty and was getting all the attendant hormones, but he was only 9 or 10 himself, so I actually kinda doubt that played as big of a role as is often assumed.

      **I quickly realized that this wasn’t actually possible. Especially as not trying to look pretty/sexy is seen as a flaw too. So you get to choose between being seen as a dork or being culpable in your own victimization. “The only winning move is not to play” But that’s not really a choice in this case, is it?

  49. “Typically, marginalisation happens to groups that have less power. There’s a power dialectic running through marginalisation, and marginalised groups are usually the ones that have less power.”

    I wasn’t debating what marginalisation means. So look back at what I said and read what my objection is.

    I have read a bit of that blog, can’t say I enjoy it that much.

  50. on June 7, 2010 at 5:40 pm | Reply jennygadget

    “That said I really don’t believe Darsh is attempting to offend people.”

    Can I just say how much I hate arguments like this?

    Even assuming that he’s not deliberately trying to offend people,* so the fuck what? This blog/discussion is not a referendum on whether or not Darsh is a decent person or not. The topic of conversation is not the value of Darsh’s eternal soul, it’s attitudes like the ones he is presenting, and the harm they do. Bringing up that, gee, girls, I don’t think he really means to be an asshole isn’t just beside the point, it’s also engaging in a variation of the “but he’s such a nice boy!” rape apology that happens so depressingly often. In addition to falling in line with common rape myth/apologies, it’s also derailing the most important part of the conversation – the harm that is done and how people experience that harm – in favor of making it once again all about the feelings of the person doing the harm.

    “This is very slippery ground, and I am only human. Correct my ignorance when I do slip, point out when I do offend. I truly do not mean to upset anyone, and simply seek to further my current understanding.”

    (In the interests of correcting your ignorance….)

    Closer, but still rather beside the point. No one accused you of meaning to upset anyone, so why is that the (only) part that you are (sorta) apologizing for? If I hurt someone by accident, I may clarify that it was an accident in addition to apologizing for hurting them, but who the hell simply clarifies that it was a mistake? Generally, people that are only concerned about appearances. People that are genuinely concerned about the harm they do, and are fully aware of it, tend to actually apologize for the harm done. First.

    Which, I’ll note, you kinda do later, which is why I’m bothering to respond at all. BUT, I also find the some of the language there troubling. “I’ll return to the sidelines.” Is listening not an active process for you? More importantly, do you consider bothering to listen first to the stories of people who have actually experienced such harm as the equivalent of being benched? Is letting others have a turn a punishment to you? “Coming off as a pompous twerp ” – again, the issue is not what you appear to be, but what you are actually doing. etc.

    *Which I’m not entirely convinced of, but as I just said, it’s also not what I’m concerned about.

  51. I agree that no-one owes anyone an explanation, and I also understand the frustration when you hear the same argument over and over (I felt it viscerally last night when the Libs trotted out the “queue jumping” argument regarding asylum seekers on Q&A – apologies to anyone who copped that tweet). It’s utterly unreasonable to expect people to explain how and why they suffer at the hands of more powerful groups – especially to members of that more powerful group.

    On the other hand, I also understand that it’s easier and more effective to learn from dialogue than monologue. I’ve always enjoyed engaging with someone who wants to debate with honesty, and I could happily discuss Darsh’s argument with him for some time. I also find that 101-type posts don’t always address a line of reasoning that I have, or at least that I can’t see how it does and would appreciate the chance to argue it through with someone else.

    I feel the tension of respecting the position Deborah describes but also wanting to engage, just because I love an argument, and more importantly, find it energising not exhausting. If I do engage, it feels like I’m dis’ing those who (justifiably) don’t want to be asked to engage (again and again and again). At the same time, I think that engaging may sometimes reach someone that the 101 stuff won’t. I also don’t know how to resolve the tension, and so flip flop between engaging and not engaging.

    • Personally, if you feel like explaining it to someone, I see no problem with that. I think telling someone that we aren’t here to educate them is mainly a mechanism for not making victims feel like they are constantly forced to educate people, so that we have an escape valve when the conversation gets a little too heavy for us.

  52. *win said case (From my comment above, which apparently cannot be replied to. I wasn’t going to make the correction, but apparently it’s the only way I can have it email me all comments and not just replies.)

  53. obviously by ‘taking responsibility’ , a woman is supposed to behave ONLY in ways that don’t place her at risk of attack.

    the logical conclusion to that train of thought is that a woman would be safest locked up in her home, with male family members to guard her when she is in public.

    What it looks like to me is that this man Darsh is saying that women have to behave in ways HE thinks are appropriate for a woman to behave, otherwise she is somehow complicit if she is attacked by someone. It’s just a backhanded way of policing women’s behaviour.

    Raped at university? maybe your rapist thinks women shouldnt have access to higher education. go home! you’ll be safe there! Raped at a party? maybe its because you chose the wrong clothes!

    raping a woman is NOT a crime against property, because a woman is not a house to be burgled or a wallet to be stolen. she is a human being with the same legal freedoms as everyone else in her community, thanks very much. But she shouldn’t enjoy them in case of rape???
    Rape is a CRIME, not a ‘salutary lesson’ about ‘appropriate female behaviour’.


    • “the logical conclusion to that train of thought is that a woman would be safest locked up in her home, with male family members to guard her when she is in public.”

      you know, except when the molester is actually a male family member. ugh.

  54. “With respect to the points you are making, try the post on What’s wrong with saying that things happen to men, too?, and the post on male privilege.”

    I never said “What’s wrong with saying things happen to men too?”

    Again I ask you to please actually read what I typed, or at least draw my attention to where you are having issues understanding.

    Again I also state, I have read that.

  55. you know, except when the molester is actually a male family member. ugh.

    yes, perhaps Darsh would like to tell us what a woman’s responsibility is in THAT situation…

  56. Why are we spending so much time on argueing with/educating this Darsh person? I’m not interested in this, if I were I’d go to a men’s rights site not a feminist one. If Darsh is still uneducated after all the time and information he’s gotten at this web site and links provided (links he has apparently not read because they’re too long), he’s either incredibly dense or doesn’t want to learn. How many hoops are you giong to jump through for him? If you really want to continue “educating”, exchange emails and do it privately.


    • Celia Jane, as someone who has arrived late to the conversation I feel that I’m learning a lot from reading replies to Darsh. I really appreciate the time people are putting in to write these.

  57. Celia Jane

    “I’m not interested in this, if I were I’d go to a men’s rights site not a feminist one.”

    You pinpoint my contention with deadly accuracy. Why must we be so seperated? Feminists with women’s issues and MRA with men’s issues. Why not society with society’s issues?

    • Cassie, You are behaving like a troll with all this “What about the Menz?!”

      Is that your intention?

  58. Thanks so much for this post. I was ‘violated’ on Saturday night (I can’t think of a better word for it. Not raped. Not even assualted. Just made to feel very very very awful). It hurts to read all this. But it is good. Because despite being a young woman who has always loudly and proudly reminded women/everyone that the victim should never feel guilty, or is never to blame…The feelings of personal guilt and blame have crept in. I never, ever thought I’d feel that. Which adds another layer to the myriad of emotions. Embarrassment and shame that I am so ‘weak’ to feel guilt.

    I have told another person, and while they had the very best intentions (and were mostly upset and supportive) the “you really shouldn’t be walking alone at night” warning crept in.

    It makes me mad that any woman can’t be free to be in public at night.

  59. […] But why shouldn’t she take some responsibility too for the rape? « blue milk You say why don’t we put some responsibility on women for ‘getting raped’ but the problem is that we already put too much responsibility on women. That’s the fucking problem. And ultimately she can’t ever completely safeguard herself against rape because rapists exploit situations where they can seize power over someone else, which was pretty much the whole point of my previous post. (tags: sexual.violence women privilege victim-blaming) […]

  60. “Cassie, You are behaving like a troll with all this “What about the Menz?!” ”

    Firstly I never said “what about the menz”. I said what about teaching people? Key word there is people, I don’t see it as something to restrict to men or women (gender equality).

    My intention is not to be a troll it is to have an opinion. One I think is valid and no one has provided evidence to state otherwise.

    I will desist with my debating once it reaches a conclusion.

    • @ Cassie “Why must we be so seperated? Feminists with women’s issues and MRA with men’s issues. Why not society with society’s issues?”

      We are so separate because of the power differential that is the kyriarchy.

      Trying to equate women’s issues and “men’s issues” is a false equivalence on the power differential alone.

      Why not society’s problems? Because correcting the ‘women’s issues’ is often the basis for those ‘men’s issues’ as male privilege is challenged and men fight to maintain what they’ve got.

      • “Trying to equate women’s issues and “men’s issues” is a false equivalence on the power differential alone.”

        WRONG. Of course the two are not equal, but we DO need to be aware that rape can happen to men too. Men rape men, women rape women, and yes, sometimes even women can rape men (I know, I know, how dare I say so). Just b/c it happens less doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be mentioned. Obviously our rape should get the lions share b/c it happens the most. But it’s wrong to ignore the other side. And don’t even get me started about how mainstream straight white feminists ignore GLBTQ rape, trans rape, and rape in colored communities. Perhaps some people should look at their own privilege as well. Just b/c you’re not privileged in one area doesn’t mean you don’t have it in others. Oh and before anyone hits with me the whole “you don’t get it” bullshit, I’m a twice rape survivor.

      • @ Diana – You comment is focused on rape rather than the ‘feminist issues vs men’s issues’ that the quoted text from Cassie or my comment were. Is there a reason for that other than to tell me I’m wrong?

  61. Carol

    I do think there are several flaws in your logic

    However for the sake of not trolling I will just accept it as the way you think.

  62. Cassie,

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but the entire reason for topical blog sites is so that people interested in a particular topic can share ideas on that topic.


  63. Celia Jane

    Exactly my original point 🙂

  64. Cassie

    Then stay on topic. We aren’t talking about men’s problems, ideas and opinions.

    Society’s problems are dominated by men. We do live in a rape culture. If that’s what you want to talk about you’re in the wrong place. And since this post has been efectively hijacked, I think I’ll go to a better moderated site for now.


    • Celia Jane, be mindful that we don’t all live in the same time zone – it is the effing internet, people, and I live in Australia and a lot of the comments come in while I am asleep. Also, I am a parent and I work outside the home too, so moderation is going to come in bits and pieces. I will do my best though because I don’t want a toxic environment for feminists developing here.

    • We also live in a white dominated and straight dominated society. Does that mean that the problems of white people and straight people don’t count either? Of course not. All she did was MENTION it. She’s not saying it’s worse. IT DOES need to be mentioned, so more male survivors can come forward. Something I think some women are threatened by the idea that maybe some males have lived through it too. Especially if (gasp) the perpetrator is a woman!

  65. Celia Jane

    I never brought up any men’s issues

  66. I don’t want a toxic environment for feminists either (being one myself)

    But with all due respect, I am not always going to agree with what is stated

    Am I not entitled to a say?

    Also I am Aussie too 🙂

  67. I think this topic is running off the rails. Let’s stop with the side arguments.

  68. sounds good blue milk

  69. So I’m back.

    It’s been an interesting read all in all. And lots to read!

    Unfortunately, replying individually to every comment would take too much time, so I’ll have to settle for one, big comment that hopefully is adequate. It’s quite long, and I apologise for that. Hopefully it will be readable enough for anyone who wants to read it.

    I’ve recently learned about TRIGGER WARNINGS as used on these blogs, so I’ll just warn right here: I am not able to judge when such a warning is appropriate!

    Though before I get down to everything I’ll start with a short answer to one specific part of a comment:
    jennygadget writes that ‘Even assuming that [Darsh] is not deliberately trying to offend people,* so the fuck what? This blog/discussion is not a referendum on whether or not Darsh is a decent person or not. The topic of conversation is not the value of Darsh’s eternal soul, it’s attitudes like the ones he is presenting, and the harm they do.’

    The reason why it matters whether I try to offend or not is that if I do not intentionally attempt to offend, then it may be possible to reason with me and have a decent discussion, assuming that discussions with people who may disagree is desirable of course. That said, I’m glad to hear that this discussion is not about whether I am a decent person or not, but about my arguments/the attitude I present.

    I’ve been reading all the links presented to me, and quite a few more, and it has taken me quite a bit more time than I had anticipated. However, even though the links I read were mostly very informative, thought-provoking and educational, I did never feel they actually addressed my point. Perhaps I simply didn’t manage to express myself properly, or that what I’m intending to communicate and what I’m writing is different.

    The post about rape culture 101 was very educational (how could it not be, with that amount of linked references), and the examples and references were numerous, varied and informative. Even to such an extent that even I – being a man who haven’t cared to much about feminism et al. – mostly recognized it. However, even by having this list of examples, I do not feel that I have ever been in the thick of this ‘rape culture’. Some of the examples are terrible and I agree that they are terrible, though others seem so far off that they are more like a caricature to me and almost a thing of the past. Perhaps this has to do with where I grew up or something.

    Ross Lincoln’s ‘I Am Not My Cock’ was less of a good read as far as I am concerned. Even though he makes many correct observations, I feel he misses a few important points in what I see as his attempt at shooting sparrows with cannons. And finally I really don’t think his use of language helps in communicating with anyone but those who already agrees fully with him.

    Starling’s ‘Schrödinger’s Rapist’ on the other hand was a very good read and I think I didn’t see anything I disagreed with there. However, I didn’t find anything that addressed the point I am trying to make either. Oh, and I must admit that I didn’t read _all_ the comments to that post.

    The pdf thewhatifgirl linked to what also very informative, and I learned quite a few things from it, but still nothing about what I was trying to argue. Though I will add – again – that I’ve never talked about or ever given any actual or would-be rapist a free pass, or argued for a lighter sentencing, no matter what their victims may or may not have done!

    The Feminism 101 Blog is actually how I ended up here. But honestly, I find its organisation rather confusing and its content not very informative. I’ve gained much more knowledge about feminism by reading several posts in the other blogs I’ve been linked to from here.

    As I don’t think these links gave much input to what I tried to argue, I’ll try to elaborate on my point and hopefully make it more clear:

    Firstly, there were several people who stated their disagreement with equating or addressing rape as a form of property theft. I’ll try to explain how I (and others) feel it is proper to do this comparison:

    I will argue that the most important piece of property any of us own is our own life. It is the thing that has the most value to us (*). The second and third most valuable properties are our minds and bodies. Probably on a shared second place for most people. Any other material, legal or intangible property, asset or right then follows at fourth place.

    (*) For the vast majority of people I believe there is also a parallel list of other people that we value greatly – some even more than our own lives. I left them out of the first list on the grounds that they are their own individuals and thus can’t be anyones “property”.

    Now, the more valuable an asset is to us, the more it hurts when it is misused, damaged or taken away from us. By comparing a car and a house, I believe most people would be more troubled by someone breaking into their house than their car, as the house is a place where we spend more time and where we naturally feel we should be safe(r).

    In the same way, I will argue that one can look at rape as a form of “property theft”, that is, someone else is unlawfully accessing, entering or making use of ones body – the body being one of the most valuable assets of the victim. I do not think this demeans the value of a person’s body, or the seriousness of rape. In fact, by doing this we are able to compare different crimes and I think it clearly shows why rape is such a serious offense! In many ways, second only to murder!

    Secondly, after reading my comments several people have also wondered what I think people, who were raped/assaulted by people they should have been able to trust, should have done to avoid it, or how I am able to blame them/make them responsible.

    I am not. My comments have never been targeted at those cases. When being assaulted by people one is supposed to be able to trust, there nothing one could have done (short of being omniscient) to prevent it. I want to note that in such cases I personally feel the punishment to the assailant should be even harsher, as in addition to the crime itself it is also a violation of trust between close people (In fact, it smells a bit of what many would label ‘treason’ to me).

    Thirdly, violent_rabbit, Helen, Scott, Sandrine, Kathy (on Spilt Milk’s blog) and others pointed out that my distinction between responsibility and blame is impossible. At first I thought perhaps my translations of the terms were faulty. But looking up the words – and the original ones in my language – I found that, indeed, I am arguing an inconsistency. I’m really sorry about that. Usually I have a fairly accurate understanding of the languages I’m using.

    Even more, Mindy pointed out that even talking about a girl having some of the responsibility for being raped, a (potential) rapist may take this as a supportive comment. And Scott also commented that putting some blame on the victim means taking some blame off the assailant. Helen linked to a very thought-provoking article by Kate Harding that argues that how one behaves and talk can actually provide support for rapists. I can not claim that I will completely shy away from sometimes saying such things, but I doubt I’ll forget the arguments she presented.

    So while it can be argued how much support a (potential) rapist may get out of my arguments, I do not wish to appear supportive to a (potential) rapist. Nor do I want my descriptions of the situations to lead to lighter sentences for rapists, even though a good justice system should avoid being influenced to lighten a rape sentence based on possible irresponsibility of the victim. Pointing out any irresponsibility is only to help avoid future rape in an imperfect world, not to work as defense of a rapist!

    Alas, it is an imperfect world, and the justice system must necessarily reflect that. Cristy’s post clearly showed how in a horrific way, the justice system is not functioning well enough. Though it is good to hear it is getting better.

    In light of all this I must retract all my statements that the assailant holds all the guilt and most of the blame, and instead say that the assailant holds all the guilt, and thus, all the responsibility for a rape.

    However, I also feel that it is wrong to completely abandon what I previously tried to confer: that people are actually responsible for their own actions. So how should I then combine these two views?

    I have to disagree with Sim when (s)he states that ‘[…] you are just as likely, if not more, to be raped in a situation where you are doing NOTHING that would be classed as “irresponsible” […].’

    This sounds absolutely illogical to me. Even if doing nothing irresponsible would not lessen the chance of rape, it seems completely contrafactual that actually doing something irresponsible may in any way _lessen_ the chance of rape!

    Furthermore, as far as I am able to see the world, the more irresponsible things one does the more likely one is to have something bad happen.

    If I’m not getting drunk and do have friends around me, there is a much lesser chance that I might get in a fight or be beaten up by a stranger. If a girl is not getting drunk and do have friends around her, there is a much lesser chance that she might get raped by a stranger.

    Lily contends that there is no victim blaming in robbery or murder (and other similar cases I presume) and Ariane thinks that there shouldn’t be. I completely disagree. When my friends have been unfortunate enough to be the victims of a robbery, I will – and have – berated them for taking stupid and irresponsible decisions leading up to the robbery. I have of course supported them in getting over it, but there has never been any point in overlooking stupid things that they did. A friend of mine never locked the door in his dorm room – as nobody ever stole anything from him anyway. I of course told him that I thought it was irresponsible and stupid, though it’s his choice what to do. It is not required to turn ones property into a fortress, as Ariane put it, but to take proper precautions is the sensible thing to do.

    One time an acquaintance of me and my friends (I was not as affected as others, as I hadn’t really met or talked with the guy very much), drunkenly got home, started to smoke a cigarette and fell asleep on some rugs in the hallway. A fire broke out and he died as the house burned down. When we heard about this we were all greatly saddened. It was quite unreal, as it always is, that someone we knew suddenly weren’t around anymore. However, I will confess that the general understanding was that this was terrible, that we felt so bad for his family, that people were going to (and did) this and that to help out afterwards, that there was no way in the world that he deserved what happened, but that nobody denied that it was stupid of him to be drunk, smoke and fall asleep like he had done.

    I hold that it is right to judge people, whether they’re male or female, and whether anything does or does not happen to them, that if they act irresponsible, it is proper and necessary to point that out.

    As such, I will point out two actions that I find irresponsible and that I have and will continue to advice my friends not to do:

    1. Getting heavily drunk or drugged by one’s own free will, without having any friends to watch out for oneself.
    2. Being in a what is generally regarded as an unsafe location, without having any friends together with oneself.

    Combining these two is, of course, even worse.

    If two or more guys get into a fight while out drinking, and I hear about it, you can be damn well sure that I will wonder how much of the blame should be put on each of them.

    A rape is not like a fight in many ways. One important distinction, especially for this discussion, is that in a rape the assailant can disengage at any time without problems (preferably before (s)he actually starts!). I’ll agree that all the blame should be put on the assailant, and, as I had to concede, all of the responsibility. And I wish to point out – yet again, that I in no way argue that a rapist should receive a lighter sentence, whether the victim was irresponsible or not!

    However, there is still no reason not to point out that certain actions taken by the rape victim was stupid and irresponsible. If for nothing else, to take a lesson from it to try and avoid a rape in the future (both for the victim and any further potential victims).

    Luckily, I have never had any friend who has been raped, so I have never needed to choose whether or not to point out such things directly to them and risk hurting my friend. I do hope that I will be able to do so, if it should ever happen.

    Though as you all say, I may have already.

    • on June 11, 2010 at 11:21 am | Reply violent_rabbit

      Mutherfucking hell what a wall of mansplaining text. No one cares for your bullshit little opinion! Just read, educate yourself and SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THINGS YOU



      • @Darsh:

        1. Getting heavily drunk or drugged by one’s own free will, without having any friends to watch out for oneself.
        2. Being in a what is generally regarded as an unsafe location, without having any friends together with oneself.

        And that, right there, is the problem with your argument. Women that are raped in an intoxicated state are frequently raped by friends and acquaintances they trusted to watch out for them. Women are raped in what should be safe locations, such as the hallway of their building, or their own bed. Women are raped in unsafe locations by, once again, the friends they trusted to look out for them.

        On the other hand, women routinely get drunk in public and come home safe. I lived in inner-city Baltimore for two years, took public transport, walked around at night past gangs all by my self, in whatever I happened to be wearing at the time, and I was never raped. Where was I raped? In the basement rec room of a teenage boyfriend’s home, by people I trusted, with someone’s mom home upstairs. I was wearing carpenter jeans and a hoodie, and extremely boring underwear. How much responsibility do I bear, in your calculus of blame?

        Stranger rape is not exactly a myth, but it is not nearly the norm. Most women are raped in what they consider to be a safe environment, by people they know and trust. There is little correlation between the conditions you claim women should “take responsibility” for and the conditions under which rape actually tends to occur.

        Women are raped because men rape them. There is no other blame that needs to be assigned, and no other responsibility to be had.

      • As a twice rape survivor I find people like you really really upsetting. People like you are part of the problem. You just want an excuse to hate anyone who is male. While I don’t agree with everything Dash says, he’s tried very hard to be nice despite you saying things like “All men are rapists”. What the hell is wrong with you? Don’t you realize women like you only give the misogynistic “men’s rights groups” fodder? Would you like me to say “all straight people are homophobes?” Or “all white people are racist?” Obviously not, b/c neither is true. What about all thin women hate fat women? Cause let me tell you, I’ve seen some pretty bad anti-big woman bigotry. And it’s a lot worse from women then men. I’m willing to bet you’re either straight or white, if not both, and you take your privilege for granted. Just b/c you’re disadvantaged in one area doesn’t mean you’re not advantaged in another. Guess what-I’m bi (you can start the slut comments now) and I’ve experienced quite a bit of bigotry from so called “straight feminists”. So have my lesbian friends, as well as my African American ones. And if you’re trans, forget it-if you get raped it doesn’t count, b/c you’re a “shemale”. And I can tell that many people on here would like to pretend that there are no male survivors.

        Getting raped doesn’t give you an excuse to hate all males-just the sexist ones. That those encompass way too many of them I agree. But I admit I have a blinding hatred for women who go around saying things like “all men blah blah”. YOU CANNOT JUDGE AN ENTIRE GROUP UNLESS YOU’VE MET EVERYONE OF THEM. That’s no better than someone saying all women are bitches b/c they meet a mean woman.

    • Darsh,

      You absolutely are immersed in rape culture just like the rest of us. The difference? Your privilege allows you not to think about it unless you choose to.

      Secondly, You absolutely do know someone who’s been raped. They simply haven’t shared that information with you.

      Harriet J at Fugitivus explains some of the possible reasons on her blog.

  70. Hi Darsh,

    Thanks for a thoughtful response. In response to my comment I want to explain more fully, as i did not express myself properly originally.

    What i was trying to get across is that you are more likely to be raped by someone you know in a position of trust, ie, in a position where you are not acting “irresponsibly”. So in many cases, how you act will make no difference whatsoever to whether or not you are raped.

    Does that make more sense than my clumsily worded original?

  71. hmm, reading back over that it is also rather clumsy, can anyone explain what I’m saying more clearly?

  72. No, I think I do understand what you are saying. It’s just that I believe you are using a fact to disregard a sensible policy.

    I’ll try to explain what I believe your are trying to say, and why I took a bit of an issue with it. Hopefully you can correct me if I am wrong:

    As has been shown, a victim is most likely to be raped by someone they know and trust. The actual number escapes me now, but for the sake of argument, let’s just say this is 90% of all rapes.

    Then, 10% of rape victims are attacked by a stranger.

    My only argument is that the less responsible one is, the higher the likelihood of being attacked and/or raped by a stranger.

    So being responsible could lessen the 10% number somewhat, though it will do nothing about the 90% number. As such, it is not in any way a complete solution or _the_ solution to a many-faceted problem with complex indirect causes, but it can still worth mentioning.

    • on June 11, 2010 at 11:18 am | Reply violent_rabbit

      “So being responsible could lessen the 10% number somewhat”

      Christ you haven’t listened to a word anyone has said to you have you? FUCK OFF FOREVER

      • If policies are contradicted by facts, they are not sensible, they are nonsensical. You can’t avoid a stranger rape either, by following your little rules.

    • The problem with this is that it’s once again up to the (in the majority of cases) women to Be More Responsible! I’m going to state three of the problems I have with this:
      1. It is once again up to the women to watch what the wear, watch what they drink, be careful of who they look at, etc. The men? What about them? Do they need to be careful where they look, what they drink, who they look at? As with so many other things in life, if it is going to cause you a problem (in this case, possibly a… I don’t even know what to call it… a desire to rape?), then DON’T LOOK! It’s really not that hard.
      2. This still supports a very misogynistic point of view, because even though you are saying that anyone (male or female) could get mugged and so they should be careful, in this case it is mostly directed at women not wearing or doing something that men pretty much have free range to do. Don’t get too drunk, or you could be raped. But that guy wasted at the bar? He may be acting like an idiot, but he’s not irresponsible simply for the fact that he got completely drunk. AND he doesn’t HAVE to worry about getting raped just because he’s drunk.
      3. Finally, by placing any responsibility of the victim for what YOU consider “irresponsible” starts down a very slippery slope. You say being in an unsafe location, but someone else might think that any location outside a home is unsafe, so it can turn into “don’t go outside your home.” And for some women, that’s the most unsafe place of all. Therefore arguing against acting “irresponsibly” for oneself is not only STILL blaming the victim, it is using YOUR definition of what is irresponsible. Which again, is different from what is irresponsible for a man. And if people live by your definition, why wouldn’t they have to live by other people’s more ridged definition in case they get blamed for being rapped? And if every person had to live according to the limits of every other person thought was responsible/irresponsible, where would lines be drawn?

      So even though you retracted what you said about rape victims having any of responsibility, you are still arguing for each and every woman to be “responsible” for themselves. When really? The RAPIST should be responsible for NOT RAPING. Period. End of story.

      And by the way? Women are already extremely aware of how careful we need to be. All. The. Time. But every now and again, maybe a women wants to cut lose a little (like a man would without thinking to much about it) and not get raped! Is that not allowed? To ever let our guard down? To ever kick back and dance freely and drink until we are wasted? To enjoy those types of privileges that men so freely get?

    • I’d like to point out something in the case of the 10% number.
      In the case of rape victims attacked by a stranger, that rapist intends to rape, and then picks his victim. So if he chooses, for example, “The one with the shortest skirt,” if every women wears a longer skirt, one of them will still have the shortest. Likewise, if he picks “the drunkest girl,” as long as even one person has a sip of alcohol there will be a drunkest girl.
      So, really, by having women make safer choices, all you’re doing is changing who the victims are, not the total number of victims.
      There is nothing that the pool of potential victims can do to lessen this number.

      I’d also like to insert here some general information about the statistics, here you go. http://www2.binghamton.edu/counseling/documents/RAPE_FACT_SHEET1.pdf

  73. Darsh, you’re still desperately clinging on to your little wedge of judgementalism in spite of all you’ve had to confront and let go of… there must be a serious puritanical streak running through you that you think you deserve so much punishment for ever daring to get drunk/stoned/drop your guard for a moment. Try some compassion sometime. You’re allowed to get drunk and pick up a woman in a bar, to relax and feel good, you wouldn’t deserve to be raped by six men for that.

    I was curious to see what impact the links and some time would have on you but that’s as far as I will humour your victim-blaming comments. You’re done now.

  74. @Darsh
    I am all for for freedom of speech, and I will defend your right to speak here or anywhere for that matter, but you have crossed a line.

    “Firstly, there were several people who stated their disagreement with equating or addressing rape as a form of property theft.”

    Did you know that rape was considered property theft? The property of the man was taken when his wife (or daughter) was raped. The man suffered not the woman. These statements on a blog filled with feminists and rape victims is offensive and ignorant. Your statement is offensive and ignorant anywhere in fact.

  75. What a nice ASSHOLE. I can’t add any more to what the others have already said. I see you’re still going strong Bluemilk. Lovely.

  76. Alright.

    Sorry for bothering you.

  77. Oh what a shame, Darsh still doesn’t get it!! I’d hate to be his friend or partner – if anything goes wrong in my life – I’d be getting some degree of the blame from him. Yuk!!

  78. […] I read this piece on rape culture today, that really made me shake my head.  I found the original posting of it here, tonight.  I know I’ve read this before, but it’s worth posting again:  Sexual Assault Prevention Tips.  Amazing that until I was sexually harassed at work, I didn’t even know what rape culture was.  It took Cortejo explaining it to me, with loads of links about rape culture, blog posts, articles and such for me to know.  I remember reading this really long blog post on it one day and going “Oh my God, that’s what he did to me!  That’s part of rape culture!”  It’s incredible how ingrained it is in our society and in our way of thinking.  Rape Culture 101, if you’re interested.  It would be nice to see a part of a high school sex ed curriculum to teach about it, but I think hell might freeze over first.  People cringe at the R word but have no problem victim blaming when someone gets raped.  ”She asked for it.”  No one asks for it.  No one.  There’s a follow up to Bluemilk’s piece that I read, after someone commented that maybe the girl should take some responsibility for getting raped.  You can read it here. […]

  79. I came to this blog hoping to read about pregnancy and parenthood and this string is the first that I have read. I sit here with my mouth agape. Chilling fear creeps through me. I am unsure if I want to read more.

    I am a birth / labor doula (soon to be an abortion doula too) and received training how to support victims of sexual abuse. People simply don’t realize how detrimental or far-reaching it can be for them to act on their (negative) impulses. Scars may fade but they exist on and can darken even beautiful, sunny days.

    Say a wish/prayer that protects women who are being victimized as you read this. Say a prayer for the perp who needs the help of humankind. It might make a difference.

    • I cover a wide range of topics here Cynthya, in fact so much so that I was worrying about all the new readers here since this post wanting to see more feminist rants on blue milk and finding soppy baby photo blogging instead.. but I forgot about the other side of that coin.


  80. Here’s a question for Darsh, and anyone else who agrees with his points. It is mostly men who rape women. Why, then, is it that instead of trying to stop men who rape, finding out why men rape, and making it harder for men to rape, are we telling women that it is they who must be careful *all the time*, never getting drunk, never flirting, never dressing “provocatively”, never doing this or that, getting a personal alarm or taking self-defence classes or doing this or that? WHY should the responsibility be on the women who are raped, rather than the men who rape? Especially since, from what I understand, in the vast majority of rape cases there wasn’t a single goddamn thing the woman could have done anyway.

  81. Since I am unable to be nearly as elegant and wonderful, here’s a rebuttal for people like Darsh from the wonderful Harriet J. at Fugitivus:

    If you have ever said, out loud, within earshot of ANYBODY, that women deserve some degree of responsibility for their rape, or that women who go to court are lying money-grubbers, or that it wasn’t a real rape, or any amount of apologism, you bear some responsibility for the reasons women do not want to see their rapists come to justice. It’s because you have told her that she will have to go through you first, and she has decided that that might feel worse than just living with the fact that she can be legally raped. CONGRATULATIONS. YOU ARE AN ASSHOLE.

    • Exactly the reason I never did a damn thing about my rape 5 years ago. Why would I want to put myself through additional trauma? I would have to be a masochist. It sucks that that’s the case with at most likely 100% of rape survivors who dare to tell an authority about it.

  82. […] would you believe?) and while we’re talking about rape, Blue Milk also answers the question Why shouldn’t she take some responsibility too? At In a Garden Somewhere we had a great analysis of “responsibiliy” and the law in […]

  83. […] 4, 2010 by blue milk So, come for the angry feminist rants at blue milk and stay for the cutesy children’s artwork blogging. After our recent love […]

  84. […] to be raped, no one.  Comments like this are just victim-blaming.  I find blue milk’s post “But why shouldn’t she take some responsibility too for the rape?” relevant […]

  85. I haven’t read all the comments on this post, and perhaps someone else brought it up, but gangbanging aside – what if the rapist is a woman’s partner who just decided that on this particular occasion he wants to have sex with her whether she wants to or not? Is she still being irresponsible for being in a relationship with this person?
    The logical conclusion to the victim taking some responsibility argument surely would be that we should never leave our houses, because really, anything can happen to anyone, anywhere, at any time….

  86. […] up in this discussion with a man about rape and responsibility and it was very much like this and this so I won’t go into the specifics of our tedious conversation but I will say something about […]

  87. I hate to hide behind an alias but perhaps when you have read this you’ll understand why. I am a man – I don’t know what it is like to be a woman – but I am married and have a wonderful daughter and want to her to grow up happy and strong and free from fear.

    This is such an important subject – but most men (like me) never really realise how important until we read a blog like this (and the heartbreaking responses). Some of us like to think we understand – but we dance round the edges. This blog confronts us head on with our deepest, ingrained and barely recognised assumptions which colour our whole understanding of the subject. And even then we still struggle to really comprehend what it means to live with the threat of rape or to be a rape victim.

    In someways, Darsh has been the most helpful poster because, as a man, it is easier for me to relate to his starting position – and then to see, by his repeated attempts to defend that position how wrong I have been in my own (unacknowledged) assumptions. How wholly inadequate my attempts at empathy and understanding have been.

    Sadly, some of that ingrained ‘male’ view was in fact put there as much by my mother as by my father. I remember, whenever the subject came up on the news, how she would purse her lips and say something like “Well, she can’t be wholly innocent” or “Well if you dress like that, what can you expect” or “She obviously did not say no clearly enough” – or any one of hundreds of similar trite blame shifting statements.

    But I also remember growing up with images of men in films forcing themselves on reluctant women who finally ‘melt’ ‘happily’ into their arms – effectively playing out the men’s fantasies of what they think of as their power of seduction when in fact it these are fantasies of rape. I think that is where Darsh might have got the idea for the “slight barrier of resistance”. An idea I remember boys repeating at school – “oh they all play hard to get” – “oh they like to flirt” “prick teasers want it the most” and on and on – increasingly offensive (both in the sense of offending and attacking).

    Like most men – I don’t know whether I know any rape victims – as one of the replies put it – I almost certainly do but they just haven’t told me – not least because I am a man and I can at least understand that once you have been raped (particularly if by someone you know, trust or even love) there is no way you are going to trust another man again.

    I still don’t know if I understand any better – maybe the best I can say is that I have a slightly better idea of how little I really understand. My once concern now is how do I raise a daughter who has the confidence to be herself – and the knowledge that she is never responsible for the actions of others. Thank you all for at least opening my eyes to my own ignorance.

    • @Dumb man: Thoughtful comments. Your daughter is lucky to have you.

    • Yes, thank you for your comment.

    • THIS. Please know that what you have said has made reading all the Darsh comments worth it. THANK you for being one man who DID get it and DID learn something and experienced his thoughts on the subject evolve. The best thing you can do for your daughter is have THIS conversation with her (if she’s old enough), never ever judge or blame a survivor (if you hear about a rape on the news say out loud “Christ that poor woman, that should never happen to anyone” or something along those lines) and always be a person she can trust, who supports her, loves her, and isn’t quick to blame her. If and when a guy breaks up with her, tell her he’s stupid and blind and not to even fret — girls and women have our confidence and self esteem eroded on a daily basis. Giving your daughter an extra boost of unrealistic “you’re the best, most beautiful, smartest etc” thoughts about herself WONT make her a pompous airhead. It will balance out the shit she’s bombarded with on a daily basis and help her become the confident, smart, and empowered woman you want her to become. And at the end of the day, even though my father did all those things for me, it still happened to me. I hope that will never ever ever happen to her, but having a supportive dad who won’t blame her IF it does is the best thing you can do. Good luck. And thanks again, Dad.

  88. Yes, what Matarij said!

    One of the things that became clearer to me – I think I perceived it kind-of dimly but reading feminist writers in the blogosphere articulated it for me – is that patriarchy is a system, and doesn’t mean “men”. It follows that there are a lot of women who have invested a lot of their life and energy into making a life in the patriarchy, and are just as much involved in its perpetuation as men are. Think of the older women who perform FGM on little girls. As a feminist it doesn’t surprise me a bit to see women perpetuating victim-blaming. They’re all part of a patriarchal society, after all.

    • Thank you Matarij, Blue Milk and Helen – scared of putting my big foot in my equally big mouth – so treading carefully.

      It pains me to say it but I can well imagine both my parents, in another life, being part of a system that perpetuates such ‘accepted’ cultural abuses as FGM – not because they are bad people but because they are arch-traditionalists – and if they grew up in such a culture they would be the last to challenge it and the among the first to defend it – as Helen says, they are instinctively patriarchal (and authoritarian – very much in the tradition of the abrahamic faiths).

      (I actually heard my mother congratulate my brother on having a “proper baby” when his wife gave birth to a son.)

      It struck me, after posting my previous comment, that part of the problem lies in our language (not just in our attitude) – again I think Darsh touched on this when he said he would tell friends if he thought they were acting irresponsibly. The particular phrase I have in mind is one used to justify man-on-man violence: “He was asking for it.” Now, I am pretty certain than some men do go out and deliberately pick fights – I have met a few. But plenty of victims had no such intention. Yet their assailants often feel justified in their assault by some vague, unspecified signal that the victim apparently gave.

      Years ago I lived in London – and after working late would go to the West End to catch a late film and stop in at Ed’s diner for a burger and beer. I invariably went alone – and friends used to remonstrate with me saying: “You are asking for trouble walking around London at that time of night.” Well I can assure you I wasn’t – in fact their warnings only served to make me more determined to exert my right to walk in my capital city whenever I pleased. I was only asking to be left alone.

      Yet this “asking for it” phrase is used time and time again to force men and woman to curtail their freedom of action not out of respect but out of fear of reprisals – it is a form of self-censorship that impoverishes us all.

      Sorry if that seems slightly off topic – my point is that to change attitudes we not only have to make a moral argument for that change but we also need to change the way we use language to describe behaviour – only that way can we hope to change minds.

  89. Meant to add – if you haven’t come across The Pixel Project then you should probably take a look at their campaign to stop violence against women:

    (And, for those of you of a cynical nature, no, I don’t work for them, I did not join this discussion just to promote them – I just thought you might be interested.)

  90. Oh and if you haven’t yet seen this shocking report on the New York Times I guarantee it will make your blood boil – it just shows you how deep rooted “rape culture” (the notion that women are part of the problem rather than straightforward victimes) is in this world.


  91. Dumb man

    I am shamed that you feel the need to put yourself down in order to speak here. Have some pride, don’t feel bad because you aren’t a woman.

    • Well, considering a lot of the comments and the general tone here…. I wouldn’t think a man WAS welcome, unless he literally became a woman. And I AM a woman….

      • Not sure why you would feel so. I have always felt welcome in these forums. Occasionally I say stupid things. Sometimes I slip up on awareness of the impact of my language. But I’ve found my comments are often well-received.

        I’d hope more men come to places like this. I love being a man, and I love being involved in issues like this.

      • Yeah, I’m not quite sure what your comment means either. For the record, I’m not thrilled about the moderation I did in this thread. It got away from me because I wasn’t able to be around all the time to moderate it – between work and sleeping. There are some things going down here that I don’t like and wouldn’t normally tolerate – abusive insults, for one. But then a guy came here and was making an arse of himself in the thread and it was on a post about rape, so he would have known how volatile such a topic can be and he chose to do that anyway here, which was not exactly respectful, and a bunch of people jumped all over him for his views and there is an argument to be made that by experiencing that he could think huh! this is what male privelege has given me, I’ve been able to avoid having my rape culture views opposed before now, and this is what it feels like not to get dominate the conversation, or he could have thought huh! my views really rile some people up, I need to step back and think about why that is so.

  92. Thanks Cassie – I don’t feel bad because I am a man and not a woman – I have no problem with that.

    The ‘Dumb Man’ tag reflects the fact that I am a person who doesn’t fully understand how pretty much half the planet feel about certain issues and therefore am ill-qualified to speak on this subject.

    It also reflects the fact that like so many I have been too quiet for too long in the face of incontrovertible evidence that women are treated appallingly in much of the world.

    The fact that like too many men, I have been too accepting of the man’s view – of society’s view – of my parent’s view that somehow this is partially (wholly?) the fault of the women (as Blue Milk put it so furiously and elegantly in her previous posting that led to this discussion).

    I think the circumstances call for a touch of humility and that the tag is well justified.

    Best wishes to you all.

  93. dumb man

    I have to disagree with you. There is a difference between being humble and insulting yourself purposefully. I think you can have a valid opinion without degrading yourself in such a manner. It disturbs me really.

  94. Cassie – This is dumb man’s call and I don’t see his tag as particularly degrading. I think he is just trying to come to terms with a little bit of male privelege and frankly, that is a great thing.

    • Hadn’t planned to rejoin this discussion – but please Cassie – while I appreciate your concern, don’t take the tag too much to heart (it’s not that degrading – and being quite arrogant I don’t think of myself like that all the time, only in this context – also, I have been called far worse).

      Blue Milk is right – and there are more important subjects (like the reason for this blog and the campaign to Stop VAM) to worry about and debate -so please let’s not lose sight of that bigger picture (sorry – I had not wanted the tag to be such a distraction – I have said enough now). Take care.

      PS: UK papers have recently reported on a sexual assault case that collapsed because the woman mentioned that the accused had been in prison. Therefor, IMHO:

      Since the courts allow the defence to use the state of the alleged victim’s dress, mental state, or level of intoxication as a form of character-assassination – they should allow the prosecution to mention the alleged assailant’s previous convictions (after all it reflects on their character just as much as their behaviour at the time).

  95. on September 23, 2010 at 7:29 pm | Reply Man (formerly Dumb)

    Just in case you aren’t aware of the Pixel Project to stop VAM – you can follow them on twitter @PixelProject and now on LinkedIn:

    http://www.linkedin.com/groups?about=&gid=2051906&trk=anet_ug_grppro .

  96. I was more addressing the tone of your messages too.

    It is one thing to be aware of gender privelage and quite another to take it to extremes. I think all people should be encouraged to be secure in who they are and to accept new information as a person not a male or a female or a heterosexual or a homosexual. You are to me a demonstration of what feminism is supposed to be against. Feminism shouldn’t be about saying to men they have no idea what it is like, we are all people, we all suffer. it is about putting aside gender in order to have equality. That is all I shall say on the matter now.

    Regards, Cassie

    • That is interesting that you bring up a tone argument, here of all places.

      It is lovely that you are idealistic enough to ‘want to put aside’. However this is unworkable in the real world. Gender is inextricable from identity and Women and Men face different challenges and different intersecting privileges. Men often do not know what it is like because our society is set up for them never to be challenged, for their privilege to be the norm. And someone unfairly privileged will fight to their very last breath to try and prove that they are not benefiting from someone else’s inequality.

      The tone argument is invalid. It is a means of silencing any critique rather than a response. There has historically and currently many many many different nicely put, polite and non confrontational means of expressing gender inequality and still those that are privileged will fight and ignore and fight.

      So please. As a “feminist open to criticism” leave the silencing tactics at home and maybe read some of the many 101 link left on this post, as well as elsewhere. 😀

      • Leave the silencing tactivs at home? You try to silence anyone who doesn’t agree with you “violent”. “And someone unfairly privileged will fight to their very last breath to try and prove that they are not benefiting from someone else’s inequality.” Well then, I guess I’ll go tell all the whites who fought for civil rights, all the straight allies, and all the fine folks at http://www.mencanstoprape.org that they’re really just fighting to keep their privilege. For someone who wants to talk about inequality, you’re one of the most judgmental people I’ve ever seen.

  97. I am not saying men and women aren’t different.

    I am not trying to silence anything

    I have read all of that

    Your position on this is illogical. It doesn’t follow that because men are different that they should insult themselves. I was also not bringing up a “tone argument” whatever that means. Merely saying that it wasn’t just a title it was a trend (of insulting himself) throughout his writing as well.

    Regards, Cassie

  98. I didnt say anything about tone of argument.

    You seem determined to insult anyone who disagrees with you. Maybe consider a different perspective.

    Regards, Cassie

    • Hi Cassie, don’t bother with “Violent Rabbit” (I wonder if she’s proud of her name?) Women like her are part of the problem and only give men and other women more reason to hate us. Anyone on here who tries to say men are human is hated by her and told they are stupid. Yet I’m sure she’d probably have a fit if someone challenged an area of privilege she has. Just ignore her the way you would any bigot, b/c that’s what she’s turned herself into, unfortunately.

  99. Sorry, I got around to reading the link you sent me, I was relunctant to do so because it is wiki.

    I can address your argument now if you desire. I think it is irrelevant, I wasn’t telling a feminist to be less aggressive.

    I will be leaving and not returning now, I don’t feel like this is a very helpful place to be.

    Thank you.

    Regards, Cassie

  100. […] post was inspired by this post and this one over at blue […]

  101. […] I’m just wondering whether, as a study of binge drinking, this play is going to reflect the new call for male responsibility (and refusal to treat men/boys as animals who can’t control their primal urges), or whether it’ll be just more of the same exhortations to women not to get themselves raped. […]

  102. There is no sure way to avoid an random encounter with an rapist.
    However getting raped, tortured, beaten up, killed, humiliated ect.
    Is a concequence of losing or being betrayed.
    But can we blame an human for trusting another human?
    And being capable to defend yourself is a priviledge that is not granted to all.
    Some are naturally too weak, only some states provide free combat training, some don’t have the time or recources for training, clothes and other equipment that won’t compromise your agility and actually provide some protection are not exactly cheap, laws of certain states are more restrictive reducing your possibilities to defend yourself ( Or at least make it illegal. ), and I won’t even start about weapons.
    Also there is the paradox of the defender.
    You may have to keep up an defence for no apparent reason but for your enemy its can be enough that you drop your defences for ten seconds.
    I used to be bullied by neo- nazis while I was still an weak child but after I underwent physical and mental combat training and became an adult I don’t have to restrict my actions or movement anymore.
    I am still completely aware of the threat just not afraid anymore, I will deal with the situation when it arises.

    So the only thing you can overcome for sure is your own fear.

    To sum up there is no way to surely avoid being raped but I think that taking some universal countermeasures that won’t restrict your life is reasonable.
    And now I mean reasonable countermeasures like how much cleavage you have doesn’t make any difference unless your clothes are made of Kevlar fabric.

  103. I hope you don’t mind, but I posted a link to this blog on my facebook in light of the recent news on the “No Taxpayer Money for Abortions” law, which will not allow Medicaid to pay for abortions in pregnancies that are the result of what they call “non-forcible rape.” Apparently, if you’re drugged, intoxicated, or mentally disabled, and you’re raped, it’s not the same as “forced” rape. Amazing. Thanks for such a well-written post!

  104. Your response, bluemilk, to this idiot is possibly one of the best responses i have ever read. Fucking brilliant!

  105. I don’t agree with everything Dash said, but as a twice raped queer liberal feminist, I do have some thoughts about it.

    For starters, saying victims bare some of the responsibility is wrong. However, it is TRUE that sometimes we can at least try to stack the odds more in our favor. For example, let’s say we all knew that in a certain alley at night, walking alone there will get you robbed. Would you purposely go and walk there alone? NO. Same type of thing.

    For so called “friend rapes”, yes, there’s not much you can do unfortunately. That I totally agree with on that one. But for the occasional times stranger rapes do happen, perhaps we can try and stack the odds in our favor-i.e. don’t walk certain places alone at night, especially not dressed a certain way, carry pepper spray (I do), be careful going to your car if you are alone, go out in groups as there is strength in numbers, keep your car doors locked when you drive etc. Even men do this in some areas do avoid getting mugged. Also don’t get so drunk you’re falling down when you are out alone. I agree you should be able to do it around your friends.

    None of that is blame. That is just plain common sense. I know some people are going to say “but we should be able to go where we want, when we want, dress however we want”. Of course we should! And guess what-GLBTQ people shouldn’t have to suffer homophobia, there should be no racism, fat people shouldn’t be mistreated-the list goes on and on (see my posts above for all the problems that I feel the straight white feminist movement doesn’t seem to see with its own privilege, and how some such people treat queer people, people of color, and others). But the point is, ALL of that does exist and does happen. Yes, in a perfect world, we should be able to do whatever we want. But guess what, we don’t live in a perfect world. We live in a world where we need to use common sense. It may not make a hug difference, but it may make some.

    Case in point: I remember my friend telling me about a path at her college that people called “The Rape Trail” b/c it was known that a woman walking there alone at night was very likely to get raped. They supposedly were trying to put more security on it, but you know how that goes. They talked all about it at orientation. Everyone was warned.

    One of the girls who lived on my friend’s floor decided to go jogging down that path at 3am-IN THE RAIN. Naturally, she got raped. Did she deserve it? NO. Does the school need to do something about that path (close it down so no one can go there would be a good start)-YES. Does the rapist deserve to be in jail-HELL YES. But I’m sorry it was not prudent, risky, and some might even say stupid for her to run down that path. It was called the rape trail for a reason. You don’t deliberately walk into that. When my friend asked her why she went, her answer was the classic “I didn’t think it would happen to me”. Well it can happen to ANYONE, and IF you happen to hear of something that can make it more likely to happen, you should try to minimize your odds. If someone tried to sell you a car that you could see was falling apart, would you buy it and drive it? NO. So why go jogging down a “rape trail?” Should she be able to? OF COURSE! But we don’t live in an ideal world. That is not “blame”. That is REALITY, and some people need to wake up.

    What we need to do is try and work toward such a world without rape, at the governmental as well as social level, while in the meantime exercising as much caution and prudence as possible. And being conscious of our own privilege. As bad as it is in “western countries”, it’s A LOT worse in third world countries (that includes places like the former soviet union). If you go read about life for women in some non western countries, many are getting raped almost everyday, or being mutilated (usually by other women). So let’s also be grateful for what we DO have, and the fact that we can even have a blog like this without being jailed or killed.

    Let me reiterate, I am NOT talking about friend rape. I’m talking about stranger rape, which I know is not the majority, but it is at least 30%. These things are just plain common sense. And no, that doesn’t mean we all have to stay home. These stupid extreme answers that some of you gave are just ridiculous.

    I’m sure people like miss “Violent” will have many insults to throw my way for daring to say that any of us should use common sense, pointing out privilege or saying that (gasp)! all men are not rapists and are human beings. But I hope at least some of you will grasp what I’m trying to say. It’s obvious that anyone who tries to be more moderate here, male or female is not welcome, so don’t worry I won’t be coming back. If you want to educate people like Dash, then do it, instead of insulting him.

    And for the record, I don’t believe Dash is a “rapist”. He stated he got a girl water when she was drunk. Hmm, that’s not rape behavior. He didn’t phrase things best, he didn’t seem to realize how his phrasing sounded. How could he? And the most amazing thing is he managed to stay polite after the bigoted ravings of people like “violent” (sometimes we are our own worst enemies). I think he just used the wrong kind of language.

    We do ourselves a disservice by ignoring the common sense bit of this. Do we all think we are so stupid and so helpless that we can’t do that? Men take precautions to avoid being mugged. That doesn’t mean it’s their fault if they do it get it, but sometimes they can do some things that may lessen the odds in some circumstances. We can do the same. Until we do live in a more ideal world, rape is going to be a part of our lives. If we want men to educate themselves, we have to do the same, and we also have to treat them like human beings and not assume they’re all rapists, even if we disagree with them. Otherwise we’re hypocrites.

    • Diana, I am very sorry to hear of the rapes you have had to survive.

      However, please DON’T try and push the argument that survivors are in any way responsible for the behaviour of rapists here. Perhaps you need to read some of the links provided by readers both here and in the post proceeding this one, and for that matter the actual post itself, that led to this one here, because victim-blaming and rape culture were the entire point:


      There is a place in a college campus nicknamed “The Rape Trail” and you think the bit that is wrong is that some poor woman jogged down it and was raped??

      Also, please take care of generalisations like “western countries” and “bad third world countries” – use specific places and stats and we can avoid falling into crappy racist stereotypes.

      Finally, please fuck off with the “Men take precautions to avoid being mugged” and so therefore ‘women should be taking precautions to avoid being raped’ argument. That is incredibly offensive. Mugging is nothing like rape, avoiding mugging is nothing like avoiding rape, women do not owe the world precautions, it is rapists who owe the world peace from their heartless and unnecessary behaviour.

    • on February 22, 2011 at 3:06 pm | Reply violent_rabbit

      Here I will make it easy for you!


      It is interesting on a post such as this with all of your tragic history you go and victim blame right in the first paragraph. Maybe it a way of regaining control for yourself, maybe you are just ignorant. But please, read all the links and the post and the preceding post and maybe things will clear up for you. 🙂

      P.S. My name no more ‘glorifies violence’ than yours makes your some sort of virginal, princess-goddess of the hunt.


    I hate this conversation. Whenever it comes up I try to avoid it, it is simply too emotional for most people to rationally talk about.

    I think a lot of people with the best of intentions and thoughts get slightly misconstrued when having to resort to specific word to describe complex situations. Words, although shared by many, are unique to each person in exactly what images and feelings they invoke/portray. Specifically here, the word RESPONSIBILITY brings about many problems when trying to discuss rape, especially in terms of a situations AVOID-ABILITY.

    Quickly, let us jump over any mention of scantily dressed women and arguments that really have more to do with gross malignancy than ignorance. The whole “she was wearing a skirt and has had many boyfriends” BS is a bit ridiculous this day and age. first off, in my past dealing with this topic, I have taken a stance very similar to the scrutinized commenter, and still did after reading the article. In my mind it went something like –

    “those girls who get sloppily drunk with a man they’ve obviously been flirting with all night, and (more or less, if you want to mention alcohol and decision making) consensually go back home with him. They do whatever, some kissing begins, MAYBE even the girl said earlier she didn’t want to have sex that night! but now its on the floor and your saying no but your pants come off, more kissing, and underwear is coming down and she says “no stop..” but then he penetrates and the girl “goes numb” and just tries to wait till its all over. then the next day or a few days along they say they were raped- some of that is their fault. They could have done so much to avoid the situation. What happened is not right but they are slightly responsible for what happened”

    And the extra quotes and the main gist of that situation are actually from a real rape story I read yesterday. I should clearly state now, no woman, and certainly not this^ one, is RESPONSIBLE for her rape. I may say otherwise if it wasn’t for the fact that no man woman or child would be RESPONSIBLE for their mugging. It does not matter when and where you walk at night, those kinds of things shouldn’t be happening. you can’t be responsible for something that unplanned and unnatural. the problem is that there is a certain amount of avoid-ability for every situation and although that does not transfer to being RESPONSIBLE for what happens, people need to recognize how certain actions can put yourself more at risk to be in a particular situation, rape or mugging. Rape often occurs around partying, alcohol, people who aren’t flat out strangers but not in your bubble- as mugging occurs often late at night and in sketchy places. BUT EVERYONE HAS A RIGHT TO SAFELY EXPERIENCE PARTIES ALCOHOL NIGHT TIME AND SKETCHY PLACES.

    I’m further developing my opinion as I write. I want to further what i was trying to say by bringing up “gray rape” in general. why does this happen? similar to my hypothetical situation- this happens SO MUCH. I have read over a hundred publicized storied where women question whether they were raped, “maybe i didn’t say no loud enough”, I didn’t fight back to get it over with quickly. And I only speak for the more non violent type college rape situations we so so often now. whyy do some women say no once?? WHY WOULD YOU EVER QUESTION YOUR OWN INDESIRE TO BE SEXUALLY INTIMATE WITH A MAN?
    I switched up everything. I’ve been drinking with this cutie. We’ve been talking, we kiss while dancing. a couple hours pass were enjoying each other. I’m a total light weight, have a middle school tolerance for alcohol since i hardly touch it, so if I’m not drunker than her we are even. She invites me back to her place and I oblige. We drunk it up in her place for a bit then start making out wherever we are, couch, bed. She puts her hand down my pants, I pull it back up say not tonight. But she keeps trying and im saying no but my pants get off anyway because were making out like I want and its not like shes going to stab me i just keep saying no and moving her hands and going back to tongue wrestling, life is sweet. but she gets me out of my undies and “next thing I know” she has sat back and we are locked, I break off the make out and quickly say ” no i dont want to have sex”, but shes on top of me, keeps riding away, (maybe i wasnt loud enough) and I ” go numb” as they sometimes say.
    TOTALLY THE SAME. and do not bullshit me about man woman strength stuff here. you cant have your gender empower then dispower you when you want, this situation is totally realistic.
    except for one thing I omitted. while “going numb” ide probably notice, although conflicted because I DONT WANT THIS. I cant help but feel it, and its not bad. maybe very violating, but PHYSICALLY- my brain picks up all the nerve action. im not focusing on the sex, im not into it. but its not painful, it is sex still.

    WOMEN- so many rape cases (and i may be wrong but i believe this “gray rape” has been perhaps the most common situation when depicting modern rape) start out with mutual flirtation and all that- i believe many even have considerate amounts of consensual kissing, deep kissing, touching one another or being in sexual positions (making out on top of eachother), fully clothed AND even in underwear and such- that in no way condones rape or guarantees future sex. BUT, and this is a big but- these women, a lot of them say themselves ” i dont know if it was rape”, I didnt say it loud enough, I waited for it to get over then left when he fell asleep and called my best friend and cried.
    PLEASE dont try and kill me for saying this, I really am a wonderfully good person. I devote my life to nothing but helping all of earths people.
    But these girls, they like these men. They do. They kiss them. they go home with them. I KNOW they don’t want sex. neither did I :)! I liked her, I just didnt want to go there yet, or maybe at all (only knew the girl one night in my hypothetical scenario). But shes not evil, she wasnt malicious

    she just wanted to bone.

    and even though i didn’t, in these gray rapes, where these girls are doing things with these guys before being foerced (haha) into sex- IS IT POSSIBLE
    that you give in?
    that you let it happen?
    not that you went numb, but that you gave into the sex. heck, at one point, you may have noticed the sexual parts of it and felt that heat in our crotch, after bouncing between the violation confusion and whatever else you wanna say.
    WERENT YOU AROUSED? no? really?? because you guys have been flirting all night and i get it- you DID NOT want to bone. but you wanted to make out and hang out, there was probably a mature socially unconstrained part of you realizing the potential for sex later on- or do you just make out with guys who your never, never going to fuck. ever. after all that drunken passionate makout, and the confusing moment that girls omit where no force seems to be used and you are magically penetrated, maybe, JUST MAYBE, you go along with it. and it feels pretty okay till you fell like a whore after. or whatever runs through you ladies minds.

    and i dont even know what that means. sounds about 50/50 consensual non-consensual. I just hate this gray undefined rape BULLSHIT.
    if you dont want it when he pulls his dick out get the fuck up. say no. push that fucker. then when he grabs you, thows you down and has his way with you, you will KNOW

    “i got raped”

    instead of floating around whatever world you like to float the fuck around in, where a person can actually ask themselves “did i just get raped”?

    such a question is almost comical.

    • I wasn’t intending to comment (sorry, blue milk!), and I’m not even going to get into the meat of this thread, but that last comment just couldn’t be allowed to stand.

      There is no. such. thing. as “grey rape”. If any party involved in an activity says “no”, only to be ignored by the other, this is obviously a nonconsensual activity. What do we call nonconsensual sex, everyone? Rape.

      Please do not confuse your own experience with others’, J.
      So say I’m in the home of someone I don’t know very well (or even someone I do), out of reach of help, with someone who isn’t taking seriously my repeated “no”s, almost certainly with someone who can physically overpower my petite self – I’m supposed to expose myself to the risk of his anger by fighting back, which could turn “rape” into “rape and aggravated assault” or “rape and murder”?? I’m supposed to trust that someone – who has already made it clear that he has no respect for my ownership of my body – is hopefully “just” a rapist, but not that bad, really. That bird don’t fly, honey. Sorry.

      And, yes, like J’s lovely anecdote, there is a marginal chance that the person you are forcing sex on isn’t *really* NOT wanting to have sex with you, but is just unsure. But why the hell would you, as a human being, want to take even the slightest, infinitesimal chance that you are RAPING SOMEONE??

      And you know what might contribute to women being unsure if they have been raped? Victim blaming BS like the comment above. “Well, she started moving in a sexual direction” “Her ‘no’ wasn’t clear enough” “She *did* go home with him” – all reasons cited as to why “it wasn’t really rape”. So is it any surprise that, when any of these conditions are met, a woman might doubt whether what happened to her counts as rape?

      • Great response to that comment, thank you. Am in the process of writing a post in reply to J’s comment but have been so slow in doing so.

      • Bluemilk, I for one found J’s comment incredibly triggering. On the one hand, I am really appreciating the comment thread in general, there is a lot of interesting conversation going on and even the problematic or outright offensive comments have provoked excellent discussion. But I have to wonder if *this one* from J is not so much producing valuable discussion as just contributing to the pain and suffering of those of us – myself included – who have struggled long and hard to accept that what happened to us was rape and not “grey rape” or “giving in” or the inevitable outcome of some personal failing of our own.

      • M-ra – thanks for the feedback on J’s comment. Will add a trigger warning to his comment but reluctant to delete it altogether given that it sparked an entire post in response – the grey rape one. Hope that is oke with you.

      • There are some genuine ambiguous cases (for the sake of keeping the pronouns clear lets keep the victim ‘she’ and the possible rapist ‘he’):

        * what if she DOESN’T say “no”, what if she says “yes” even, but only because she’s too drunk? (rape? regrettable sex? rape if she says nothing but regrettable sex if she says yes?)

        * what if she says “yes” but said “no” earlier in the night before she was drunk? (rape? regrettable sex?)

        * what if she even initiates it, but only because he deliberately got her drunk knowing what the outcome would be, and knowing she’d never go for him sober? (rape? regrettable sex?)

        * what if she initiates it while drunk, after getting herself drunk, but he’s totally sober and he knows she’d never do it sober? (just regrettable sex? still rape? rape if he’s sober, but regrettable sex if he’s also at least a little bit drunk?)

        * what if she’s hating it so much that she’s crying over his shoulder, and he asks if he should stop but she actually says “don’t stop”? (cruel, but can you deem him a rapist if she technically consented?)

      • Bee, your comment probably belongs on this thread instead – https://bluemilk.wordpress.com/2011/03/27/all-the-way-gray-rape-and-third-base/

        Does that post address any of your questions better?

      • Sorry, i read that first. I found this thread because you linked it there so i read it to see what you were responding to.

        I’ll move the comment?

        But, no, it doesn’t really answer the question? It doesn’t cover the case of she said “yes” because she was drunk?

    • Oh. My. Fucking. Goodness. I’ve read all of this post and the comments, and managed to keep my temper. Until now. Until this comment. J, who the fuck are you? Really. Who. The. Fuck?

      How dare you. How dare you tell me that because I didn’t shout no at a man in my house, raping me in my bed, because I didn’t push him off and yell in in his face, how dare you tell me that means I deserved to be raped.

      Did you ever consider that maybe I, and many other women who have been in this situation with a guy they liked but did not want to have sex with, was too SCARED to push him off? too FRIGHTENED to assert myself? Too TERRIFIED to do anything but lie there crying?

      Because if this guy, who I liked, knew, and had been dating, could go so against my wishes like this by coming into my room in the middle of the night and forcing himself upon me, then what else might he be capable of? Might he hurt me? Might he kill me?

      How the fuck am I supposed to know, J? How? So what do I do? Because, if I shout no, if I fight him off, what happens when he stabs me? Or strangles me? Or beats me with my own bedside lamp? Is THAT my fault too? Do I have to take some responsibility for that? Because, fucking hell, I only went and completely misjudged everything again!

      J, you are a complete cock. I was not to blame in any way for what that man did to me. He decided prior to that night’s date that he was going to rape me. He chose to drink too much so he couldn’t safely or legally drive home, and he chose to insist he would drive eecause he knew that I wouldn’t let him do that, and because he knew I couldn’t actually force him to take a taxi or train, and he knew that because I knew him, and trusted him, that I’d say he could sleep in my spare room. And even as he was agreeing as I told him I was not going to have sex with him that night (and maybe not any night), he KNEW he was going to rape me.

      So what, exactly, was I supposed to do about that? Don’t answer. I really do not want to know your response.

      I am not usually a vicious person, but you make me sick. I weep for my daughter growing up in a world that still thinks women are to blame for the wrong men do them. I weep that she lives in a world where you do, too. I weep, J, I weep – and YOU are to blame for that.

  107. […] This stream of consciousness comment has been bothering me for a while but I haven’t quite had the energy to tackle it until now when I was shamed into doing so because some poor bugger has come and read the post, found the comment, and probably wondered (rightfully) why that comment wasn’t taken to task by me already – I mean, especially given this whole post is written in response to troubling comments received by another man on another part of my blog. […]

  108. Finally got to read this after reading and commenting on your more recent post that links to this.

    The idea that victims have to shoulder some of the responsibility can only ever be true if you accept that it is right and normal for violent behaviour to exist.

    In the case of the mugged man, if he walks down a place known to be dangerous and is mugged, he can only be considered partly responsible if you accept that mugging is normal and natural.

    An idea of victims being responsible can only ever be true if views from a fundamentally flawed mindset.

    Because any other viewpoint leads one naturally to the point of saying people who are marginalised by society must bear some responsibility for being who they are. It is a necessary conclusion to the argument. And one that ultimately destroys the very fabric of society.

    One thing slightly OT that I’d like to add – a comment I made on another blog but can’t remember where, sorry. If we accept that we cannot talk about the offender’s past because it might prejudice the defence, so we should not be able to talk about the victim’s past on the grounds it might prejudice the prosecution.

    • But to many times rape victims are afraid to report the incident that happened because unfortunately they do allow the victims past to be used against them in court.It is something that really should be changed.

  109. […] either. The only person who is responsible is the person who CHOOSES to rape. Blue Milk has an outstanding post about this issue, but it’s the comments that truly create awareness and enlighten. The next time you think, […]

  110. WOW.
    The earlier post was brilliant, this post even more so. Thank you for your clear and well-reasoned arguments.
    Victim blaming is abhorrent, voices like yours are invaluable.
    Thank you!

  111. I havent read all the comments left but I felt the need to comment.
    I have been raped most of which according to the male poster I would be to blame.. I feel the need to share my story. Im not ashamed of what has happened to me.
    1st time, aged 14 was at a guys house. A friend of his (aged 22) came into a room where I was sleeping started kissing me, took my clothes off.. I told him I was scared and didnt want to cause I was a virgin. He just told me to be quiet and he will be gentle. He was so rough and I was crying all the way through. But I wasin a dangerous situation so thats my fault…
    2nd time aged 14.. Was pissed at a mates house and 2 doors down lived a bunch of uni students. They came over to say hello, convinced me to come back to their house where I was “shared” between them. They were aged 20-22. But again I was quite drunk, so my fault??
    3rd time, aged 15 NYE on the beach making out with a guy. He pulled my skirt up and before I knew it he was having sex with me. Told him to stop and few mins later he came.
    4th time, aged 16 I went to visit my boyfriend who lived a while away. We got drunk, made out, but then I cried to him how I wasnt ready for sex as I was dealing with all this rape (and other things) and didnt want to.. I went to bed and passed out. I awoke in the night to him having sex with me. In the morning he told me that was my job and not to talk about it. Again I did get quite drunk!

    So to the man who thinks I am to blame – fuck you. These guys have got away it and I doubt they stay up crying at night for what they have done. Your argument is just as lame as the “she was asking for it” arguement.

  112. on June 22, 2011 at 6:05 am | Reply A woman who agrees with the man *shock horror*

    I’m a woman who considers herself a feminist but I doubt that will get me any credit here. Rape is awful and one of the most traumatic experiences ANYONE can go though, no arguments.
    Rape only stops when rapists stop. No arguments.
    It is not women’s fault that we are vulnerable in a violent world. No arguments.
    The message should be sent to men that it is NEVER NEVER OK to rape. No arguments.
    However, I still believe that every adult (man or woman) should take some responsibility for their own safety. It is not nice that this should be true. It is wrong that we should have to protect ourselves. It is in NO WAY EVER a woman’s fault that a man rapes them. However, there are some precautions we can take to look after ourselves – like not getting comatose drunk. A small precaution like this cannot possibly stop every rape, or even affect statistics on the whole but if it can save you from an experience that could shape your entire life, it seems like a fairly good idea to me.
    I also think it’s unfair that Darsh has been attacked in this way. As a newcomer, this seems like a fair site visited by educated and well meaning people – but now we’re dragging feminism into a man-bashing arena. Not something I want to be a part of.

  113. […] To “A woman who agrees with the man”: […]

  114. on June 25, 2011 at 5:54 pm | Reply Politicalguineapig

    Gravey Dice: I’ve always understood that men are naturally violent. So violence and rape are a natural consequence of letting men roam freely- especially when they’re young.

  115. on June 25, 2011 at 5:55 pm | Reply Politicalguineapig

    By young, I mean 15-30.

  116. So wait, women who have been raped by their husbands should avoid being married in order to reduce the risk of being raped? Or as a woman, is merely a possession to be used at the whim of the owner/husband and has no right to say no?

  117. on June 26, 2011 at 9:00 pm | Reply Politicalguineapig

    Blue Milk: I’m all in favor of letting women roam freely- but I think it’d only be a good idea if the men were kept at home, or not allowed to form packs. An individual man might be a good man, but once he’s with his friends/ frat brothers/ teammates, he’s just another predator. (By extension, I’m prepared to argue that there are no good people in a crowd, just a vast amorphous hive-mind capable of anything.)

    • I can’t tell how tongue in cheek you are being… we’re feminist mothers here and few of us could entertain a notion like seperatism even if desired – we’re raising (and loving) young men. And folding rapists into maleness really disturbs me – it lets the rapists off the hook. In reality the world is filled with many wonderful men and they need not be lumped in with rapists. And likewise, we have the right to expect more of men than that they be rapists.

  118. on June 30, 2011 at 7:00 pm | Reply Politicalguineapig

    I don’t think seperatism is a practical idea, but I think not putting young men into situations where they’d fall into that state of mind is a good way to start. Like I said, it’s pack behavior- if a young man takes up sports, goes into the army, or joins a fraternity, he will likely be in contact with mlen who rape, and he’ll quickly start thinking that rape is okay, because he values his friends more than his mother, his sisters, or his girlfriends. So, obviously, one should discourage men from joining those instituitions or going around in groups.

    • That’s a pretty huge If-then you’ve proposed, and since I can think of half a dozen counter examples to your claim without any effort, I’m also sure it’s a false one. This is a problem that isn’t confined to any particular demographic, it runs right across society, and so it needs to be addressed at all levels of society, not just in places where men congregate.

      It’s reasonable to target groups like football clubs, but those efforts will be unlikely to do much if we keep blaming victims in the wider world. As long as there’s the option of someone saying “rape is bad, of course, but in this case it was just as much her fault”, all the targetting and education in the world won’t change anything.

    • I don’t agree with your logic. In fact it’s incredibly flawed. And it’s really quite insulting. The hivemind mentality is not exclusive to men and male dominated groups. (Or rape)
      As someone who has been involved with the military for 14 years I can quite assuredly tell you that there are MORE men in the armed forces who DON’T rape women than there are who do and that goes for all demographics of male dominated groups.
      As Bluemilk already said, creating this allusion that rape is something to do with maleness and large groups of it, tells men that if they’re in a male dominated group then it’s in their nature to become rapists which absolves them of wrong doing. And that is not okay.

  119. After reading all the posts, I have to say it’s a great conversation to keep going. I especially love it when men join in and struggle to understand, then at least we all struggle together.

    The point I’d like to make is that while awareness and precaution can sometimes prevent crimes (or anything) from happening, just as many times, it can’t. It depends on so many things if a criminal succeeds or even has an opportunity. As illustrated here, plenty of people have done all “the right things” and were still raped. I have been raped and have avoided being raped. However, the common denominator was that men were trying to rape me and either succeeded or did not. So whether I did “the right things” to prevent it or whether they failed was somewhat arbitrary.

    Two examples from my life of this would be: just outside the window where my parents were on a summer evening I had my first kiss from my “boyfriend” of a year when I was 12 – then he raped me; the other example, I was locked in a room with a trusted martial arts teacher and he tried to rape me and I vomited on him … and that time I got away. So vomiting must be the magic trick, ah ha!

    It’s a bit like dancing for rain … as in, if I do this certain action, then this other event will or will not happen. (It’s called “magical thinking.”) However, rain happens or it doesn’t. Rapists rape; however, this is not a natural state but rather a symptom of deep-seated dysfunction in our society. Living in a culture that treats rape as a natural occurrence, distateful but biologically driven, has condoned the behavior of rapists as being like the rain. So maybe if we just learn the “right” dance steps, we can prevent it? Of course not, but there’s this undercurrent of myth that plays like a nursery rhyme in the background every night and day: do this or that and you’ll get raped or avoid rape. The moral of our harsh reality is that rape happens because rapists rape and not because of anything we did or did not do.

    What I love here is that people are saying clearly: Women do not cause rape nor do they own the burden of preventing it. Education and ending the silence can prevent it. It may take us a long time, but it’s an uphill battle that’s worth every step. Can we protect ourselves? Yes, we can and we do; however, it’s not a question of responsibility but rather a crime that occurs or doesn’t. Though perhaps learning to projectile vomit at the threat of rape would be a neat trick before leaving the house or trying to sleep in peace.

    • I agree; you can totally see the men struggling in their lack of argument and becoming frustrated. (When I say they I don’t mean all of course…just those that did…gotta say that lol 👍)
      After they calm down perhaps they’ll come back and rethink this post, their ignorance and expand their mind. Or maybe they will continue to be crude, ignorant and irrelevant because they can’t see the truth (some..how 😒) or maybe they just can’t bring themselves to the place of such lack of control / vulnerability. Either way, blue milk did a great job, and even the worst of the comments only prove her posts truth. That’s my thoughts anyhow ❤️

  120. Love your way of explaining these important points, thank you Anna.

  121. @ Darsh.

    As a man, I feel a need to stand up for us against some of your comments. First of all I will argue that you are well entitled to your opinions, and that I have no problem with you sharing those opinions to the world. However, coming onto a feminist website the prime subject on which is rape, read by women (many of whom I think we can safely assume have been sexually assaulted) and arguing that they have responsibility for some of it is somewhat tactless.

    The real issue here is which actions a person has responsibility for. If a women gets incredibly drunk, wears little clothing, and acts flirtatiously through the night, she is responsible for those actions, as they are her own. If she gets a hangover from drinking, it is her responsibility. If she gets cold in her little clothing, it is her responsibility. If she gets hassled at uni the next day for giving three different boys bedroom eyes, it is her responsibility. These are all expected consequences of her own actions. Getting raped should not be the expected consequence of anything.

    If a man goes out and gets super drunk, it is his responsibility. If a man goes out and rapes, it is his responsibility. End of story. It is his action.

    Yes, we do tell people to be careful of things. However, many of your analogies are very misguided. You say an insurance company can require you use smoke alarms. Yes, you are correct. However, fires are generally accidents, something that just happens. Rape is a deliberate action. If I didnt have a smoke alarm and someone came and set fire to my house intentionally, are you telling me I have responsibility for that? I have responsibility for my own actions (not owning a smoke alarm), but I am in no way responsible for the actions of the arsonist.

    The other issue with your argument is that a lack of smoke alarms doesn’t make a fire more likely to happen. Nor does it mean you are asking for a fire (accidental or otherwise)

    You cannot be responsible for the actions of another person, even if your actions possibly make the actions of others more likely, or if they make them easier for them to do so. If that were the case, then anyone who left their door unlocked, or who had property invisible from the street, or who simply chose to buy nice things would have no legal standing when they were robbed. Their actions had made the robbing just so easy and enticing, how could the poor criminal say no?

    So please, even if the next time you see a story on the news about someone being raped, and you casually forget that means there’s been another thousand that are not on the news, feel free to think to yourself, ‘well, i’m sure they bore some of the responsibility’, but for the sake of tact and humanity, please don’t go saying it to any girls, because one in three (more or less) of them will be much more offended than you can even understand.

    @ Violent Rabbit

    You also are free to have your own opinions, but a word of advice: If you go around saying things like ‘all men are rapists’, you are going to scare or offend people away from your cause, not towards it. It does you a disservice, and as someone who takes rape incredibly seriously, it is very very offensive.

  122. […] either. The only person who is responsible is the person who CHOOSES to rape. Blue Milk has an outstanding post about this issue, but it’s the comments that truly create awareness and enlighten. The next time you think, […]

  123. An extra point to add to this… There are people who say that if a woman gets incredibly drunk then she is partially at fault for getting raped – completley ignoring the fact that (in the UK at least) we live in such a booze culture that getting this drunk is considered completley normal activity for a large proportion of society. For many, going out is focused around alcohol and the amount a person can consume is seen as a badge of honour. This is the culture we live in, and what many people consider normal. And yet it’s the individual woman’s responsibility not to get caught up in this? The same goes for when people say a woman had it coming because she was dressed “slutty”. We live in a culture that encorages women to do this and then blame them for it when they get attacked.

    If these people truly think that these things are responsible for rape why aren’t they fighting against the booze/raunch culture that permiates our society rather than blaming individual women?

  124. You know what cracks me up? When a woman gets raped, the guy calls her irresponsible. Oh yeah? How irresponsible did you think I was while you were raping me?

  125. A distinction needs to be made here. Blaming the victim is neither logical nor helpful to anyone. A crime and an act of violence is not justified by the motive or the opportunity – or the naivete of the victim. That some judge others’ acts as foolish or lacking discretion is a reality, but making it someone’s fault for being preyed upon makes zero sense. Secondly, that survivor doesn’t learn the lesson intended by the accuser but rather internalizes that it’s okay for criminals to inflict their worst as long as someone can point the finger at the “mistake” made by the victim.

    Please, for the sake of all those survivors – including children who couldn’t have gotten out of the way of perpetrators, stop blaming the victim.

  126. […] would you believe?) and while we’re talking about rape, Blue Milk also answers the question Why shouldn’t she take some responsibility too? At In a Garden Somewhere we had a great analysis of “responsibiliy” and the law in […]

  127. […] up in this discussion with a man about rape and responsibility and it was very much like this and this so I won’t go into the specifics of our tedious conversation but I will say something about […]

  128. I am actually disgusted by the notion of the victim ‘taking responsibility’ for a rape attack. You make me want to be sick. I will dress how I like, dance how I like and walk WHERE I like no matter how late at night or how much I’ve had to drink. I shouldn’t have to consider the fact that I might be ‘provoking a rapist’ into my wardrobe choices or social behavior.

    There is never an excuse for rape!

    Please DO NOT try and find a way to justify it!!!

  129. No need to assume he’s a man, i am a woman and i agree with him!

    I think it’s not unreasonable to suggest to women that they should avoid dangerous situations which they can feasibly avoid (unlike being disabled or having a stepfather) and which have no benefit (unlike jogging).

    I do not mean they are “asking for it” if they choose to disregard this advice, and taking advantage of a vulnerable woman is no more excusable than overpowering a less vulnerable woman.

    But a much higher than usual risk of sexual assault is just one of MANY reasons why drinking till you are barely conscious is a very bad idea. It’s not unreasonable to suggest women (and men) should avoid drinking like his.

    • Candy and anyone else thinking of leaving a stupid comment like this one – please see https://bluemilk.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/re-post-to-the-woman-unconvinced/ – it’s just for you!

    • You are a very poorly informed woman then Candy. If rapists didn’t rape then it wouldn’t matter if women got drunk, went jogging, or just generally had a fucking life. How hard is that to understand?

      How hard is it to understand that the majority of women who are raped are raped by someone they know and used to trust? Not some stranger because they got drunk, but their boyfriend, their boyfriend’s friend, their brother’s friend, their sister’s boyfriend, their father’s friend, their father, their brother, their husband, their boss any number of fuckwits who they\se women felt that they should have been able to trust until that man showed them that they were wrong. I hope you are never that woman. But she is out there, she is a lot of us and we deserve your understanding not your bullshit based on myth and uninformed opinions.

  130. […] Candy, who just left the comment on my post, “But why shouldn’t she take some re…- this is being re-posted just for you, and all the other people standing with you on your slippery slope of blame. […]

  131. This isn’t a case of “myth”, the original post titled “Don’t get raped” was a situation where if the woman had not been so drunk, the rape may have been prevented. Just because we can’t prevent ALL rapes by taking some sort of reasonable precaution doesn’t mean we should feel totally helpless to prevent ANY rapes. I guess my bias is that i just dont’ like feeling totally helpless.

    Women shouldn’t feel obliged to not have “a f*cking life” as you put it. I myself often walk home after midnight, i know i’m taking a bit of a risk, but the risk of stranger rape is lower than the risk of skin cancer if i walked at midday. Also the risk is small enough that it’s a risk i’m willing to take for the freedom to walk when and where i want.

    Stranger rape IS rare, i know this, that’s why i feel quite safe walking alone at night. That doesn’t mean drinking one’s self unconscious is a good idea, it means it’s always a bad idea, even around people you should be able to trust. It doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to get drunk around strangers, it means it’s a bad idea to get drunk around your boyfriend, stepfather, brother’s friends, your work colleagues etc. Even if you are around people you really can trust – like your girlfriend or your husband of 10 years – there is a risk that a stranger, your partner’s brother, or who knows who else, could show up. There’s no situation where it’s sensible to drink that much, because a safe situation can change into an unsafe one.

    Rapists don’t want to prevent rape, that’s kind of the nature of the crime. If only they can prevent rape: we can’t ever prevent rape, or even reduce the risk of it, which is kind of depressing.

    When can educate men who don’t want to be rapists about the nature of consent, but we can’t feasibly totally stop people from doing selfish evil things, so it’s reasonable to do things which reduce our risk of becoming their victims.

    Being able to do things which reduce the risk doesn’t at all mean that not doing those things excuses the selfish evil actions of the aggressor. That is a separate issue, reacting to every suggestion of ways to reduce the risk with “don’t blame the victim” just confuses this issue and makes the “victim blaming” problem worse not better.

    • Except I don’t believe all the people who commit rapes are evil criminals. Actually, I think some of the people who commit rapes don’t even think what they’re doing is rape. When I say only rapists can prevent rape, I mean the only way to prevent rape is to change our culture so that kids don’t grow up believing boys should want sex at any cost and do anything to get it. As long as having sex is described as “scoring”, as long as women are seen as the gatekeepers of virginity that all men want to “take”, even men who think they are good people are going to commit rape, because that’s what they’re raised to do. Not to mug strange women while they’re walking home at night, but to see a really drunk girl at a bar and think of her as an opportunity for an easy lay, or to cajole their girlfriends to put out, or to conspire with their friends to get girls drunk so they can sleep with them, or to hear about a college kegger and think this is the perfect opportunity to find girls gone wild. Our current understanding of sexual interaction between men and women – and even though some of it is hormonal and innate, a LOT of it is socially constructed – makes men predators, and makes women prey. It’s not about women drinking, because some of the time they are drinking because men who want to fuck them are pouring shots down their throats or spiking their drinks. It’s about the way we train people to think about sex. So no, it isn’t only rapists who can prevent rape. It’s parents, and friends, and teachers, and people who make movies and songs and write books. But it is not ever, ever rape victims. Because when even the sweet boy who loves you thinks your virginity is a prize for him to win, and that a few drinks are just what you need to relax you and get you past your “nervousness” about sleeping with him, what the hell does it matter whether you wear the right clothes and behave appropriately in public and only have one beer at the club like a good girl? If every man in the room, good and bad and just plain criminal, thinks that his job in relationships with women is to convince her to sleep with him, then you’re fighting a losing battle. The fact is, there’s nothing you can do to guarantee you will never be raped. Nothing.

      • Of course there is nothing to guarantee rape won’t happen, but that doesn’t mean reducing the risk is wrong. Seat-belts can’t prevent all deaths on the road, but we still wear them.

        And yes, you’re very right “some of the people who commit rapes don’t even think what they’re doing is rape” that’s what i meant by “We can educate men who don’t want to be rapists about the nature of consent” and – like you say – there are other attitudes which can also be changed. This is getting a bit too close to the “grey rape” can of worms though, and i don’t want to open that one.

      • Except we *can’t* reduce the risk of being raped. It’s not like wearing a seatbelt *at all*. Car accident deaths don’t happen because other drivers treat your body like public property, they happen because cars are fucking dangerous. Are you really comfortable suggesting that men are inherently, incurably, unavoidably dangerous in the way that a huge, heavy, fast-moving machine is? I’m not. I’m also pretty uncomfortable with equating losing control of a car to raping someone. Rape is caused by a rapist’s decision to act, you can’t rape someone by accident.

      • Of course it’s not exactly like the seat belt analogy, i was trying to use something more serious example because the examples of crimes such as property theft seems so offensive, and i can kind of see why the property theft analogies are offensive. No example is perfect of course, only the situation itself is perfectly analogous, but it’s such an emotive situation that people seem to lose all sense of rationality when discussing it, hence the attempt at examples.

        I refuse to believe i can do absolutely nothing to even reduce the risk, that is just too depressing to contemplate. It also seems rather implausible.

        Of course changing aggressor attitudes to be less aggressive is the ideal solution, but i doubt it will ever be 100% effective. Even if it could be 100% effective we aren’t there yet, there are currently still people out there with bad attitudes to sex and women. Unfortunately we don’t live in a rape-free utopia yet. I really don’t think i should be vilified for being cautious.

        Like i said in the other thread i – rather stubbornly – don’t even take any precautions which interfere excessively with my lifestyle or don’t have other benefits.

    • Thank you Sarah. Your patience and perseverence are hugely appreciated. I have re-opened this argument at a re-post, which I wrote specifically in relation to the argument that some victims of rape are wholly or partly responsible for being raped: https://bluemilk.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/re-post-to-the-woman-unconvinced/

      All future comments on this thread persisting with the very tired argument that women and men and children raped by rapists are to some degree to blame for being raped will be DELETED.

      • Bluemilk and Sarah, I agree with all you have written and appreciate very much Sarah taking the time to respond. My only question is whether suggesting that women can take precautions to prevent rape and holding women responsible/blaming them for rape are really the same things? I can think of many examples from my teenage-hood where I was really reckless and it scares me shitless now to think what could have happened to me. I will definitely be advising my daughter to be careful that doesn’t happen to her and that she and her friends take care of each other when out. But does that mean I am somehow victim blaming? I don’t think so.

        I am raising this as a query because I am interested to see if you really think they are the same thing? And if you do, why.

        I don’t want to be set upon (this means you, Mindy).

      • Jen, I understand what you’re saying. On the one hand, telling women to change their behaviour to avoid rape is, by definition, saying that if they don’t change their behaviour they have contributed to the rape and is therefore victim blaming. On the other hand, we have the fact that because of the culture we now live in, some behaviours are more likely to put you in harm’s way and it seems logical, for a woman’s safety to suggest she avoid those risky behaviours.

        The problem is, that the latter is pretty much the only thing mainstream society has been doing to reduce rape for, …well forever. So by publicly suggesting women should change their behaviour, one is continuing the long tradition of victim blaming. Added to this, is the fact that how much riskier those behaviours are is highly arguable.

        But the main argument against privately telling your daughter not to get herself into risky situations, is that if she is raped, especially if she is raped because she forgot to/decided not to restrict her behaviours for the sake of avoiding rapists, but even if it’s got nothing to with it, she’s very likely to blame herself, and not the rapist. As a person who was raped whilst engaging in risky behaviour (getting very drunk), I can tell you it’s very hard to shake off the shame for “having been so stupid”. But I wasn’t stupid (except for causing myself a hangover), I was drunk. My rapist was entirely responsible. If your daughter gets drunk, or takes the shortcut home and some arsehole decides to rape her, do you want her to blame herself?

      • Thanks for the reply, Ariane. I really appreciate it. I was thinking of an incident that happened to me when I got really really drunk, was vomiting all down myself in the nightclub, managed to get in a cab, and passed out in the cab. I woke up the next morning outside my front door with my key in my hand and money from my wallet missing. There was vomit all down the steps of our apartment. I vaguely remember the taxi driver telling me to get out of his cab but nothing else. I often think back to how lucky I was that my taxi driver was not a rapist.
        When I think about warning my daughter it would be that she should look out for her friends and that they should look out for her. I still can’t believe my friends let me get into a cab in that state all alone.
        I get your point about women being responsible being the only message we seem to hear but I still want to be able to warn my daughter about taking care. Is the idea that I should put it as a general warning – about personal safety more generally – rather than rape as such?

      • My story was pretty similar to yours, only with less vomit and more rapist taxi drivers. I don’t blame the people I was with for letting me get in a taxi on my own – it should have been the safe and sensible way to get home. The driver is the reason it wasn’t, not my friends, not the alcohol. You weren’t “lucky” your taxi driver wasn’t a rapist, you were simply experiencing the world the way it should be. The taxi driver doesn’t get a cookie for not being a rapist.

        Looking out for one another’s wardobes (because getting vomit out of clothes can be tricky sometimes) and making sure your friend will be able to operate keys to get in their front door so they don’t spend the night sleeping next to the letter box (that one’s not my story), is a good idea. Making it about somehow preventing other people from committing crimes is creating an implicit belief that we are all responsible for stopping other people’s criminal acts, and that’s pretty horrible, on both a personal and social level.

      • Thanks for sharing your story, Ariane. And thanks for taking the time to respond to my question. I think I have a better understanding now. x

    • The problem lies with the fact that rape is a violent crime and should not exist in the first place.

  132. ok, i give up, please delete everything

    • Sorry, I won’t be deleting your comments, you can’t start a big argument like this one, get everyone involved and then want it all to be for nought. I know it’s hard to feel exposed on a comment thread but I showed patience with you pursuing your line of argument here even though I found it offensive and you will need to be strong enough now to let it all stand.

  133. You know what Jen, just fuck off then. I don’t have to play nice when someone says it is my fault I was raped because I wasn’t careful enough. I wasn’t even fucking drunk, I was too young to drink. If I’m not allowed to be angry at my rapist and about a society that says it’s my fault for not being careful then when can I be fucking angry?

    Please tell me I’d like to know.

    • OMG. I was referring to the fact that you seem to be bluemilk’s comment police and on so many threads on this blog I see you getting angry at people’s comments. Sometimes I fear commenting because you are going to slam me. You are one of the reasons I stopped visiting here for a while. And wow, telling me to fuck off and has shown it again.

      You seem to have some real issues where you think that you are have monopoly on suffering and oppression. And somehow commentators just keep giving you reasons to get at angry them. Maybe you should examine why you use the internet to vent so much of your angry at the world?

      • It doesn’t feel nice to be told to fuck off, and I’m not big on personal abuse on my blog, but when someone feels as angry and hurt as Mindy does on a comment thread like this one, and when she has taken the time and shown the courage to tell everyone why she finds the direction of this thread so horrifying, and when you know how gob-smackingly revolting much of the world is about this topic and how beaten down survivors get by that ignorance that they find all the fucking time, everywhere, can I suggest that you take a big breath and cop it on the chin?

        You don’t have to take me up on the suggestion, of course, you can choose to stop following this blog, but that’s what I would like to think I would do in your position.

    • But you aren’t being angry at your rapist. You are being angry at someone on the other side of the world who innocently asks a question on the internet. And then gets on the internet at 6am (the only time I have to myself all day) and sees she is being told to fuck off. And this isn’t the first time I have felt terrible because of how you have spoken to me on this blog. I am so sick of it. You have the ability to make this space toxic sometimes.

      • Bear in mind, I get bombarded with shitty comments here – from misogynists and anti-child bigots and trolls – and Mindy has had my back, over and over again.

  134. And before you come back and say ‘but I didn’t say that’ I was talking about Candy throwing up old crap like ‘ a woman can do something to make herself safer’ which is complete crap.

    Your “I don’t want to be set upon (this means you, Mindy).” means that you don’t actually read my comments or understand that when people say crap about rape that it can be triggering. Or that when the same bullshit is repeated over and over again on whatever topic that it is okay to get upset because you have heard it for the umpteenth fucking time.

    You don’t get to decide that on my behalf and you don’t get to fucking tell me what I can and can’t do, unless you want to bring down upon yourself the very thing you didn’t want. I wasn’t at all concerned by your comments until you made it personal. Fuck you.

    • I wasn’t referring to your comments to Candy. I was referring to the fact that so often when I make points on this blog I end up being the subject of your aggression. I am so sick of it. See you later bluemilk.

      • Jen if you hadn’t singled me out I wouldn’t have thought twice about your comment. Don’t put your issues with your advice to your daughter on me please. That said I’m sorry I over reacted. If you wish to comment here I won’t comment on your comments again.

        @bluemilk and others – sorry I got carried away.

  135. @ candy you said: “Of course changing aggressor attitudes to be less aggressive is the ideal solution, but i doubt it will ever be 100% effective. Even if it could be 100% effective we aren’t there yet, there are currently still people out there with bad attitudes to sex and women. Unfortunately we don’t live in a rape-free utopia yet. I really don’t think i should be vilified for being cautious.”

    This passage show you aren’t reading what people are saying. What people are saying is that a) we do not live in a rape free utopia and b) advice to women to be cautious is offensive and props up the culture that allows rapists to go largely unpunished. No-one is vilifying you for being cautious, we are criticising you for perpetuating the myth that if you are a careful good girl you will be safe. Cause that is simply not true.

    And, sorry if feeling like you have no control over this is scary. I understand where you’re coming from. But, surely it’s better to focus your energies on things you can control rather than things you can’t? I dunno, like trying to change rape culture by sending a message that we need to change it, rather than women’s behaviour?

  136. Not totally safe, but more safe.

    “surely it’s better to focus your energies on things you can control rather than things you can’t? I dunno, like trying to change rape culture by sending a message that we need to change it, rather than women’s behaviour?”

    I said that myself!

    Watching my own drinking habit seems like a far MORE achievable goal than changing a whole culture.

    • But…and I know I keep saying this, but…watching your own drinking habit *doesn’t change anything*. It might be a good idea for a person for various reasons. It might be better for my health. It might make me feel more confident and in control when I am out, and make me feel safer or whatever. But if someone decides to rape me, whether or not I watch my drinking habit won’t make a difference, and whether or not I watch my drinking habit doesn’t change how likely someone is to decide to rape me. I can try to reduce the chances someone might decide to rape me – or anyone else – by working at changing the culture I live in. Yes, it is a HUGE goal, it’s a lot of work, there will not be a rape-free world in my lifetime. But social change happens, and it’s worth striving for even if it doesn’t seem possible. I doubt the first suffragettes ever thought women would actually become politicians in their lifetime, but look at us now.

      And before you say you’re not claiming nobody should try to change or challenge rape culture, I will remind you that those of us objecting to your comments here believe that claiming there is a way for women to reduce their risk of being raped supports rape culture and undermines the fight against it by returning the focus of anti-rape measures to the behaviour of rape victims.

    • sorry, just got back to this. Nope, just saying good girls are more safe over and over just doesn’t make it true.

      you can control your own drinking but it won’t change your chances of getting raped. End of story.

      thanks Sarah for chipping in.

      • sorry, should have said “maybe you can control your own drinking”, cause plenty of people on the internet have explained why it’s not always possible.

    • Women who “behave” don’t make history.Changing the culture will not just protect us but for future generations. I don’t care how much effort it takes I don’t like the idea of my daughter growing up in a world where she doesn’t feel safe walking down the street.

  137. sorry if i said anything offensive/triggering please delete anything you find objectionable, or preferably just delete all of it, this conversation is just pointless, i want to un-happen it!

    • The bit where you said “this conversation is just pointless” is exactly the point where I decided that I would not be deleting your comments… you really think this is pointless? You think everyone generously engaging in your discussion at such length is pointless?

  138. Finally, I am open to feedback on my moderating skills, though I won’t always please everyone nor share everyone’s views. This isn’t the thread for that feedback, please email me instead.

  139. […] at Blue Milk, the author points out that there is a double standard in the case of rape and the women that are […]

  140. My lay response to this is based on differences in hard wiring and many biological factors that drive us. Any attempt to dominate another sexually, psychologically, physically against their will is truly terrible but the bottom line is that men can and will rape- at a base level their designed to capture, fuck then go. Outwith their animal instincts men should reason, hold themselves back and empathise but it is a lottery as to what stresses, conditions are driving his animal responses over and above reason. Unfortunately I don’t think their will be equality in sexual crimes and I do think that women do have to stay in control of a tiny portion of their brain while having a fucking good boozy night. If you aren’t able to sense a man’s subtle or overt motivation and he is driven to exert power and force over you and sees you as an open target then you run a significant risk.

    Understanding human dominance through my own personal experirnce-
    When I’m under extreme stress my nasty animal, hormone driven side wins out frequently and with great rage- in psychodynamic terms I displace my tenion on to my husband because I have to get it out of me- I know that I have bullied and been psychologically heinous to him but under stress I repeat the same behaviour often.

    • That’s a choice you make Elizabeth, just as a rapist makes the choice to rape. That’s why we can leave the house at all, because the majority of men make the choice to control their urges. Men are not animals, treating them as such demeans then.

  141. Reblogged this on infinitetimemusic and commented:
    This is a fantastic discussion and thoroughly de-constructs the ” victim blaming ‘logic’ ” , as completely out of touch with most victims’ experience of the crime of rape.

  142. I’ve just read this entire conversation which has took up about 2 hours and i feel i want to comment now.

    Something that happened to me has bubbled to the surface that i had completley suppressed. About 7 years ago i was drinking shots of this ridiculous 80% russian vodka with a bunch of guys. I remember doing about two shots then nothing. The next morning i woke up very ill in a wet bed (i know, how embarrassing). During the course of my day a girl i kind of knew told me that everyone in the block had a naked picture of me. I confronted one of the guys i was drinking with and he proudly showed me a picture of me unconcious and naked in his bed. 2 other guys had pictures too took from different angles so i think there must have been about 3 at least who were present. Noone said anything but it was implyed that i’d had sex with someone. Later that day a person i didn’t know told me i’d knocked on their door at 3am crying and saying i’d been raped.
    So with all this evidence i think i was probably raped by at least one person, maybe 3. I’m only telling you this story because i feel right now that it was my fault. I had previously slept with this guy, i was so drunk i have NO memory of anything that happened (and it still hasn’t come back to me) and i may even have consented but i don’t know. I was utterly foolish. Obviously i didn’t deserve that to happen to me but if i hadn’t have been trying to be clever proving i could do shots like one of the men it wouldn’t have happened.
    I’m glad i don’t remember though. If they thought it was okay to take pictures of me then they obviously were capable of anything.

    I’m quite upset now. I’ve told myself for years that i wasn’t raped but all evidence suggests i was and its hard to finally tell someone what happened.

    But just to add something else….. i’ve seen some terrible remarks about how men are all rapists on here and i don’t think thats fair. Men can be victims too but its difficult for them to express it.
    A male friend once told me that he had had a one night stand with a girl he met in a club. In the morning he woke up to her having sex with him. He said he felt, in his words, “annoyed” because she had took advantage of his uncontrollable “morning boner”. He then laughed it off saying “i guess that means i was raped” and moved the conversation on. It is projected as some sort of male fantasy that guys like to be woken up to unconsented sex and maybe it is in some people but its sad that he has to just laugh it off. If he were female and that happened people would agree it was rape but for him it was just something “sexy” that she did that he should just enjoy.

    Anyway i just wanted to give you a different perspective there =)

    • I am so sorry – I really feel for you. That is the shittiest story ever. You have nothing to be ashamed of, or feel responsible for. A friend said to me once, when discussing rape: rapists rape. It changed my entire perspective. I’d been subconsciously thinking ‘how to behave to avoid rape’ i.e. it’s my responsibility what other people do. What other people do is not your responsibility, particularly when you are incapable of consent. And rapists rape. That’s their responsibility, their shame, and their guilt. Not yours.

  143. @giraffe85 – I am sorry for your experience. Those men had no right to take advantage of you no matter how drunk you were. I think boys should be raised to be the type of man who would take a drunk woman home – either to her place or his, somewhere safe where she could sleep it off – and then after ensuring she was safe – leave her be. This is the minimum standard we should be expecting.

    Men have every right to expect that they will be treated the same. Your friend was right to be upset. Feminism says the same. The partriarchy may say that all men should be happy with sex all the time, but feminism doesn’t.

  144. MASSIVE thank you to Bluemilk for this fascinating post & thread. The fact it’s still continuing after two years just shows what a high-quality discussion it is. I came across the blog today and have ending up reading all the way through the thread…

    I work with survivors of sexual violence at Rape Crisis (England) and also have been reading widely online recently, especially after Ched Evans’ recent conviction and the utterly malicious and sickening stuff on Twitter etc against the rape survivor.

    All these comments have really helped me figure out how to articulate the argument against blaming the rape survivor and challenging ‘rape culture’ in general.

    ESPECIALLY liked Benji’s point:

    “The real issue here is which actions a person has responsibility for. If a women gets incredibly drunk, wears little clothing, and acts flirtatiously through the night, she is responsible for those actions, as they are her own. If she gets a hangover from drinking, it is her responsibility. If she gets cold in her little clothing, it is her responsibility. If she gets hassled at uni the next day for giving three different boys bedroom eyes, it is her responsibility. These are all expected consequences of her own actions. Getting raped should not be the expected consequence of anything.”

    Right, now I’m off to read the original Bluemilk blog post, (Don’t get raped) and the one after this one (All the way – gray rape and third base)…!

  145. Cards on the table – I’m male. I’ve just spent a couple of days reading this thread after following a link from the “I Believe Her” facebook page. In February 2010 I was arguing exactly as Darsh was above, on of all places, a thread on a cycling forum. At that time, there were 4 or 5 women (at least two of whom are survivors) valiantly trying to educate 3 or 4 men. I could point you to the one or two posts made that finally opened my eyes to the concepts that have been discussed above (Rape culture, the irrelevance of precautions, and the harm of proposing them) I’ve probably still got a way to go – one of the reasons I am reading here.

    I’m thinking twice of making this comment – but I’ll go ahead anyway because it is important. I don’t think it should, but apologies in advance if this causes hurt.

    My point is, I can still remember how baffled I was by the arguments. It seemed incomprehensible to me that the women involved didn’t want/couldn’t see a reason why “reasonable” precautions should be taken. Of course I was baffled – I’ve spent 50 years living in a rape culture. Those things that we (as part of that culture) “hold to be self evident” take a lot of seeing round/past.

    And here is (I think) where I risk antagonising people. If we are going to break down that culture we need to engage with people. In particular, but not exclusively, we need to engage with men. No amount of reading 101’s was going to give me the understanding that a couple of well worded posts from people I know and like were able to do. Darsh read the 101’s and came back, still not understanding – I would have do so too.

    Some of the comments above have been pretty vitriolic. I recognise that I will probably (hopefully) never be in the position to understand the hurt that lies behind that. However, we cannot have a dialogue if people who are trying to find out/learn what they need to know are made to be so unwelcome. If I’d received that response from the cycling forum, I would still be unaware, and a much bigger part of rape culture than I currently am.

    Perhaps this is the wrong place – if it is then we need to find a forum where this can be discussed with people *even while they do not understand*

    • I agree with you Tony, but there’s a fine line between recognising how hard it is to get past what you’ve grown up with and placing expectations on survivors and other people to do the helping. Adding to Mindy’s points, you may be better placed than many people to be the one doing the explaining. You remember how you got from there to here, and that’s a massive advantage when explaining things to people.

      I’d also like to note that there is a difference between people who continue to engage with a genuine intention to learn and those who just want to look like they’re listening, but actually aren’t. As you say, perpetuating rape culture is a hard habit to break, and it requires some thinking, without knee jerk responses. I can see that a dialogue can be much more helpful than reading stories when someone is genuinely trying to grapple with the concepts, but when the dialogue stops being constructive, it’s time for the learner to go away and think for a while before expecting anyone to continue to engage with them.

      It’s tricky ground – I prefer to debate a point in order to understand and I know I’ve been the one continuing to push my own point longer than I should have on any number of occasions. I’ve also learned far more from the debates than from the 101s, so I know where you’re coming from. However, no-one owes me that debate, and expecting it is unreasonable at best, and downright damaging at worst. I agree that a 101 forum, rather than resource, would be a very useful thing. I’m not sure if you’d ever find enough people prepared to engage in that debate (although when I have enough time, I would be – I love a debate from the teaching side as much as from the learning side) to make it viable. Perhaps this is something you could kick off?

  146. Tony – I don’t know if you have kids, or have dealt with kids – but if you do or have you will be familiar with telling them the same thing over and over again and getting really frustrated? Yes? That is what it is like for survivors of rape, and for people like bluemilk and me trying to get people to understand. Some of them never do and we all, quite rightfully, get sick to death of that shit. We are not the world’s teachers. There are pages and pages of stories on the internet explaining how it doesn’t matter what you do, what you wear, who you are, where you are if a rapist decides to rape you there is pretty much stuff all you can do about it.

    I will teach my children that rape is wrong, it is up to adults to adult up and teach themselves instead of expecting someone to take each person in hand gently and explain it to them over and over and over again. .

  147. When I was 15, I got thrown out of a nightclub (by a female bouncer) for being drunk. I had no way of getting home because the club was in the middle of an industrial estate, 20 miles from home. A friend of my friend’s boyfriend followed me outside and we kissed for a while, before he took things further than I wanted to. I was drifting in and out of consciousness, so I didn’t have the presence of mind to say no or get away – I just knew that I didn’t want to do what he was doing.

    I honestly don’t know if it was rape or not, and to be honest, to add a name to the situation actually means nothing to me – it was just a shit thing to happen and I feel sick whenever I see him, which is thankfully rare nowadays, although I had to block him on Facebook to stop him coming up as a friend suggestion again and again.

    The takeaway from it is not that I blame myself, but I do feel that it could have been avoided if I had shown myself more respect and not been so drunk, and therefore separated from my friends. We cannot control whether we will be raped in our lifetime, but we can control whether we will be so smashed that we can’t scream, or run, or say no – or even be completely alone with a potential rapist. If I’d been less drunk, I wouldn’t have been thrown out and I wouldn’t have wandered off into an industrial estate. Even if I’d have been outside, say getting air, I would’ve flirted with him rather than going off with him, maybe gone back into the club and danced, swapped numbers, even dated perhaps – weird to think about. After all, most rapists are perfectly charming when they’re not raping someone. Instead, I did something stupid and he did something horrible.

    I will have to tell my children this story. I will tell my son not to get so smashed that he does not notice that the girl he’s with is out of control. I will tell any daughters I might be blessed with to not get so smashed that they are out of control, and to always know where each and every one of their friends are.

    The number one thing that we *all* want is for rape not to happen at all. Until we can identify how to stop rapists being created (or whatever word you consider appropriate), it only seems logical to look for ways to avoid being raped, without losing quality of life.

    • @Becca – teach your son to take his drunk girlfriend home or somewhere safe without raping her. Tell his friends to do the same. Tell your daughters to go with their drunk friends, if they can do so without endangering themselves, or if they can’t to call you to come and pick them all up. Make sure they have phones with credit so they can always call.

      You got drunk. If you friend’s boyfriend hadn’t decided to rape you, you would have ended up with a hangover, or vomit on your shoes. It was his decision, not your fualt.

    • I get that we all have regrets and that it feels horrible to carry a memory like that around and to feel drunk and out of control and stupid. But you know, you were 15 years old, you’re allowed to make mistakes and drink too much and not know when to stop drinking.. you were a kid, for crying out loud. And actually, women of all ages are going to sometimes drink too much, that happens, we’re people, we make mistakes, we do silly things, we let go sometimes… that is still never an excuse to rape us.

      • Thank you both for your kind words. I just feel that it’s important that we don’t get so bogged down in the “responsibility” debate that we lose sight of what matters – reducing instances of rape. Recognising ways to protect ourselves better is not saying that we are to blame when we make mistakes and put ourselves in danger.

        I think that the analogy of walking down a dark street in a dodgy area with your Rolex and iPhone clearly displayed works perfectly. There are really, really awful people out there, and we cannot work on the basis of what others should and shouldn’t do, because we simply cannot control that. Until we find a way to get through to would-be rapists and stop that, all we can do is protect ourselves – not drinking too much, not becoming separated from our friends, not going to hotel rooms with large groups of men we don’t know.

      • But someone can steal your Rolex and I-phone without raping you. Losing your Rolex and I-phone isn’t quite the same as being raped.

      • Of course. But just because one thing is significantly worse than another doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t encourage people to take precautions against it. If anything, it’s the opposite. I’d be inclined to say “risk the phone and watch if you like, but if you can do anything to reduce your chances of being raped, I’d do it.”

        Let’s talk crimes on a similar level then. The McCanns. Do you think that they rightly feel some responsibility for the abduction of their daughter because they left her unattended? Obviously it was only the abductor who was to blame for such an awful thing to happen, but surely the takeaway is “keep your children close to you at all times and minimise the chance of them being taken” rather than “well, people just shouldn’t abduct children, should they?”

      • But you aren’t comparing the same things. My vagina isn’t something I can leave unattended which is why comparisons to wallets, watches, phones or even kidnapped children aren’t relevant. Also, most rapes don’t occur in dark alley ways with strangers. Most occur in the home or in someone else’s home where you would expect to be safe. Most rapes are carried out by people known to the person raped. How can you make yourself safer in your own locked house? Yet people are raped in their own houses all the time, often by someone who they should be able to trust, like an intimate partner. Statistically you are safer outside your home in the company of strangers. There is no way to make yourself safer. The only way to be safer is for society to stop teaching men that they should expect women to have sex with them just because they want them to.

      • I think it’s directly analogous to the McCanns, but draw the opposite conclusion. They were crucified in the media for leaving their child comfortably in bed – the message was that they were partly to blame for the abduction of their daughter. I reject that, exactly as I reject that you or I contributed in any way to our rapes. The problem is that while at some level, there is a risk reduction argument that theoretically doesn’t reduce the responsibility of the offender, in practice, that’s not how it works. Taking precautions to stop illegal activity doesn’t reduce illegal activity, it just gives the offenders an excuse.

    • on May 10, 2012 at 10:08 am | Reply helenbalcony

      What your son will take away from this, Becca, is “don’t get so smashed that you don’t notice the girl you’re with is out of control, but (nudge, nudge, wink) if she’s out of control, you are entitled to sex with her, and if she doesn’t really consent it’s her fault then.”

      • Wow. Just wow. I actually meant that I would teach him that not getting smashed was a precaution against making really poor decisions. I can assure you that I would like to teach him respect for others as a base for everything. Furthermore, I would like to teach him that sex is an activity of shared enjoyment, not something that one person can “take” from another. I’m sorry – I thought as we are all moderately decent people who agree that rape is wrong, the “rape is wrong” message was a given.

    • Except that there are plenty of women that don’t drink who have been raped
      Rape isn’t something that only occurs when someone is “smashed” children get raped as do the disabled and the elderly. I am fairly certain in these cases the victim wasn’t “smashed”. So sorry for what you went through but please note if you were not wanting to do it it was rape.I am not trying to attack you but it must be understood that rape is a violent crime it is not a ” cause and affect “scenario.

  148. Look, Darsh, it’s quite simple. If I choose to drink so much I pass out, that is entirely my responsibility. If a rapist chooses to take advantage of my inebriation, that is entirely his responsibility. I am responsible for my actions, he is responsible for his. I bear full responsibility for my actions and no responsibility for his actions. If you think that by getting so drunk I bear some responsibility for the rape, then you believe that rape is a natural consequence of being very drunk rather than a wilful deliberate criminal act. As hundreds of thousands of women around the world get very drunk every year and are not raped, it is obvious that rape is not a natural consequence of drunkenness, and it is in fact a deliberate wilful criminal act. Therefore no matter how drunk a woman is, no matter where she is, no matter what she’s doing, no matter what she’s wearing, she bears no responsibility at all if a rapist rapes her.

  149. on May 11, 2012 at 12:40 pm | Reply helenbalcony

    I’m sorry – I thought as we are all moderately decent people who agree that rape is wrong, the “rape is wrong” message was a given.

    (Nested comments don’t seem enabled now – probably my browser, or something)
    Oh, that’s what society says. Rape culture is more subtle than that. “Well, it wasn’t really rape, was it? What was she expecting going back to his apartment – a cup of milo?” “Oh, my boy can’t possibly have raped anyone. He’s a nice boy. The girl’s lying, or slutty.” And so on and so forth.

  150. First, a potential trigger warning. I’ve only come across triggers as a concept in the last few days, and really don’t know what might be a trigger – so please read on with that in mind.

    Following my post above, I received the following tweet from Sophia Maria @sophiamaria_

    @tonycollinet Hi, could you do a second post on the Bluemilk blog and explain what sort of comments really helped you to see the argument??

    I checked with Andie if she was OK with it, and also checked with the people on the cycling forum who will be quoted, and all were supportive. So here goes.

    For background: I’m just about on the right side of 50, I come from a middle class background – whatever that means – and for most of my life have thought very little about rape issues or feminism. Before the thread on the cycling forum I’d never heard of rape culture, and had no idea how common rape is. My perception of rape was that it is mainly perpetrated by strangers preying on women in dark lonely places – you know, how you see it in all the films.

    ….Two days later – I’ve discovered I am not a writer. This started out as a whole series of quoted posts and replies, and was completely unreadable. This is the short form – and even this is too long – sorry.

    There were 4 people posting the stuff that changed my viewpoint – I’ll call them C, F J, and K. The thread was started by K in response to this article:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8515592.stm (Reporting a survey which suggested more than half of women thought there are some circumstances where rape victims should take some responsibility for the attack)

    My opening post in the thread clearly stated my starting pov that victims are not to be blamed/held responsible for any attack – so at least I started on the right side of the page regarding victim blaming. However following a series of posts from another man, that it was reasonable to expect people to take responsibility for their own actions, and to take “sensible precautions” to reduce the risk of being raped, I jumped in and backed him up. The thread went through the whole gamut of justifications – and I did learn some stuff, such as the offence caused when rape is equated to other crimes like muggings and theft. I was forced to take a step back and think, when F posted, making it clear that she had been a victim of rape. However I still could not get my head around the resistance to a point that seemed so obvious to me.

    Sometime during all this, C posted a link to “Shakesville Rape Culture 101” My answer:

    To the rape culture site – I found it interesting but also a little strident. By the definition of that site we are clearly living in a rape culture. Is taking reasonable steps to increase your safety pandering to that culture, or a natural and necessary response to it? (Both is a valid answer)

    K made a post where she pointed out that the majority of rapes were perpetrated by people known by the victim – thus rendering precautions irrelevant. My next to last post makes it clear that I failed to grasp the significance:

    OK – no-one is saying a person can modify their behaviour, and thus magically guarantee not being raped.

    But if there are places and circumstances where rapists are more likely to strike (say in unlicensed mini cabs, or lonely graveyards*), and those places/circumstances can be avoided with little negative impact on lifestyle, then by so avoiding them the chance of being raped is reduced.

    Certainly I will avoid the lonely dark dodgy places in unknown cites – or any other place where I feel unsafe – it just makes sense! In an ideal world, I wouldn’t have to – but this world is far from ideal (a rape culture?). And it is NOT about victim blaming.

    *shit – I don’t know, I’m not a rapist

    K made 2 more posts again stressing the point that most rapes are not in the stranger/dark alley, and the last one finally began to get through – I also recognised that the difference of opinion was causing a certain amount of ill feeling. . Notice the “if” though; I still didn’t really get it.

    If that is the case, then you are right – nothing can be done to increase safety.
    But come on – where has anyone suggested in this thread that women should be kept inside?
    Anyway – shutting up now. I’m clearly ruffling feathers in a way that is unhelpful and unintended. Apologies.

    The apology was genuine. These are people I know (if only online) and like, and causing any sort of distress was definitely not what I wanted. This was at page 5 of the thread, which went on to 19 pages in 10 days. I did stop posting at this point, but continued to read. The first two posts which really opened my eyes were in reply to my last post above written by K, and in reply to my last but one above, written by C.

    From K:

    I’m pointing out that the nature of rape and rapists is such that the only way women can be certain they’ll never be raped is to have no contact with men whatsoever. Because rape happens everywhere, in the street, at home, at work. And I’m pointing out that many people’s answer to that is to tell women to modify their behaviour, and that goes unquestioned, unchallenged and regarded as common sense. But heaven forfend anyone suggest that actually it’s the potential perpetrators who should have their behaviour modified.

    And from C:

    This is rape culture.

    Yes, very occasionally women do get raped in deserted alleyways and lonely cemeteries. In a world of all possibilities, women get raped in an awful lot of places.

    But the all-pervasive image of these sorts of rapes perpetrated right across the media has infiltrated our minds – Infiltrated men’s minds – to the point where people in a position to comment on the subject seem to conveniently forget that the overwhelming majority of rape occurs in far more familiar circumstances. Time and again, they skew the argument towards the issue of women protecting themselves.

    Shifting focus from the sort of rape that is far more likely to happen to women (viz. being raped by someone familiar in surroundings that are familiar) is shifting the blame.

    More than that, continually trying to differentiate “proper” alleyway-stranger type rape from the more often reported kind by using terms like like “date rape” only serves to reduce our abhorrence to the act of rape. All rape.

    When did you last see an anti-rape advert that focused on men for a change? Walk into any police station and you’ll see posters saying “Burglars – be afraid of Smartwater” or “Untaxed drivers – we’re going to crush your car”.

    Where the fuck are the “Rapists – we’re going to catch you and lock you up” adverts?

    This was finally the point at which I began to understand what C, F, J and K were explaining. I am embarrassed now at how long that took – but as stated in my first message to this blog, I’ve lived with those self evident “truths” for so long that they take a long time to break down. I continued to read the thread to the end, and there was plenty more discussion, most of which helped me get my head around this new paradigm.

    To sum up, there were two lessons I needed to learn: First that the vast majority of rapes are not of the stranger danger variety, but are committed where the victim should be able to feel safe. Secondly, that of the remaining few that are committed by strangers, even the majority of them are not committed in circumstances that can reasonably be avoided. The main problem was that I needed to do more than learn those points, I needed to understand them, grasp them, get my stupid head around them. And that is what the passion of C, F, J and K helped me to do. Thanks guys!

  151. Violence against women doesn’t just happen. Violence against anyone doesn’t just happen. Attackers don’t just happen to attack, although they may just happen to attack you.

  152. […] and The Internet’s Favourite blue milk Rants, namely Don’t get raped and her response post But why shouldn’t she take some responsibility too for the rape? This was posted 2 years ago, so clearly I’m ahead of the […]

  153. […] But why shouldn’t she take some responsibility too for the rape? […]

  154. […] to a great posting about how to not get raped.  There is also a follow-up posting where the author responds to “why shouldn’t she take some responsibility?” by trying to get the male commenter to look at the situation as if it had happened to him.  It […]

  155. One of the best ever posts on rape culture and placing the blame on women I have ever read. Well put.

  156. Fuck you, Darsh, for making it sound like a man’s natural behaviour setting is “rapist”, and it’s up to those sultry, bewitching women not to agitate our unstoppable proclivity to rape. The responsibility for rape is on the person(s) who rapes, nobody else. And I use the word “person” very loosely.

    Your attitude towards the girl whose apartment you stayed in tells the whole story. You attempt to make yourself sound like a conscientious knight errant because you got her water and slept beside her till the morning… and then your façade comes crumbling down when you reveal why you acted chivalrously: “luckily” you picked up where you left off in the morning. Well, as long as you got to fire your mucky yop up something, it’s alright, isn’t it? You barely-functioning piglet.

    The decent thing to do would have been to leave; hanging around for a further six to eight hours in the hopes that you’ll get that shag that you’re so sodding entitled to proves that you’re nothing but the trouser-wearing equivalent of a hungry dog staring at a butcher’s window. You clearly have no more respect for women than is strictly necessary for you to hoodwink your way into their underpants. You make me sick, and I’m embarrassed to belong to the same gender as you.

    Fuck you. Fuck you for making all men sound like nothing more than an over-eager sex organ attached to a basic central nervous system. Here’s an idea: you don’t get to say a goddamn thing about rape and the responsibility for it unless you’ve been raped yourself.

    Oh, and by the way, if you’d carried on after she was unconscious, it wouldn’t “most probably” have been rape: it absolutely would have been rape. Not a complicated matter.

    I’ll finish where I started: fuck you, Darsh.

  157. I’m really late to the discussion but i really wanted to comment on the responsibility thing, because frankly while Darsh comes across as a really shitty person (Really? you congratulate yourself on not raping a girl and then brag about still having sex with her? Real classy dude)… I do sort of get where he’s coming from, and where a lot of people are coming from talking about responsibility and putting yourself at risk.

    Is it irresponsible to get fall down drunk or blackout drunk? HELL YES! You can get in all sorts of accidents, you can fall down the stairs and break your neck, you can die of alcohol poisoning, you can kill someone else. I’d pretty much say that not getting that drunk is pretty good advice, and a very good way to avoid those situations.

    Still, accidents happen, and getting that drunk CAN be an accident, even killing someone CAN be an accident. You know what isn’t an accident? RAPE. No one accidentally rapes someone else, you can’t sort of rape someone, you can’t rape someone a little bit. rape is rape is rape is rape.

    No one would give a burglar any leeway if they said that they couldn’t help themselves, that they just had to rob that house, because it was so nice or because the door wasn’t locked, because the owners were asleep and didn’t tell them that they didn’t want their stuff stolen.

    So why do we make those excuses for rape?

    The only one responsible for rape is the rapist….. not many things in life are black and white… This is, why do we have so much trouble understanding this?

  158. […] This stream of consciousness comment has been bothering me for a while but I haven’t quite had the energy to tackle it until now when I was shamed into doing so because some other poor bugger has come and read the post, found the comment, and probably wondered (rightfully) why that comment wasn’t taken to task by me already – I mean, especially given this whole post is written in response to troubling comments from another man on another part of my blog. […]

  159. OK I am a bit nervous putting this out there but here goes. I did law back in the mists of time. No I don’t practise criminal law, never did. But I am the absolute FIRST to say that no victim’s behaviour is relevant to the fact a CRIME is committed. She was too drunk to say no? In that case sir, she was too drunk to consent and therefore the sex was not consensual. Jail. Thank you. I absolutely do not buy the “but she was asking for it” or “she flirted so I thought she wanted it” rubbish. Consent is consent and if it wasn’t there it wasn’t there. If she was incapable of giving consent you didn’t have consent.

    None of these things make a woman responsible for her rape or contributed to it or anything so offensive.

    BUT, and here’s what may offend you and I am sorry for that – I’ll still be teaching my daughter not to get so drunk she can’t make her lack of consent very clear, not to get drunk in the company of people she hasn’t got reason to trust to protect her from others, and not to walk in sketchy places at night especially not alone or drunk, let alone both. It isn’t because she would be responsible for what might happen. It is because it can be prevented and I’d like to prevent it happening.

    Should women be able to get drunk and not have crimes committed? Of course. Should women be able to walk alone down a dark street in high heels after a night out drinking? Absolutely. And they do, and most times it turns out ok. But I want my daughter to be safe not by accident or luck but by knowing what’s out there and avoiding as much risk as possible while still having a good time. I can’t protect her from the psychotic who drags women off bikes in broad daylight. I can’t protect her from the date rape by the boy she had reason to trust. Those are all horrible things out there I hope never happen to her. But I can protect her from some things, I can teach her to minimise her risks.

    To me that’s the same as saying look both ways when you cross the road, wash your hands before preparing food, get your vaccinations…they won’t always protect you but they’re better than the available alternatives.

    Stay as safe as you can in the world as it is but try to build a better one at the same time.

    I hope that hasn’t offended anyone. Truly. I just think its possible to advocate for safety and for not excusing criminals while at the same time teaching our daughters ways to protect themselves. Isn’t that what we want?

  160. […] of my posts, originally part of a series (here, here, here, here and here), was republished at Women’s Agenda in […]

  161. Question: If every woman minimized the risk that the next rape victim would be her (by avoiding situations with obvious high risks) would the actual incidence fall?

    I don’t know the answer but I’d hypothesise that if someone predisposed to commit rape couldn’t easily find an isolated, drunk woman in a convenient location he might have to wait longer, thus over time incidence might fall. And that has NOTHING in it about blaming victims, it really doesn’t. But we can only do what we can do – keep ourselves and our daughters as safe as we can.

    I guess I don’t see the point in saying “I’m not responsible” (correct) therefore I will not take precautions because I shouldn’t have to. Seems a logical leap there. We shouldn’t have to, but we need to if we don’t want to be next. Which is better? To stand on our rights or to be safer?

    • Except that a person can take every precaution and still get raped in the safety of her own home
      Precautions have nothing to do with whether or not rape occurs and “responsibility” isn’t always going to stop it from happening

  162. Yet again, Nephila, the vast majority of rapes are _not_ of a young sexily-dressed young woman who’s falling-down drunk and alone in an isolated public space. They’re domestic partners, dates, friends, teachers, parents, other relatives, drivers, care aides.

  163. I agree lauredhel, completely. Date rape, domestic rape, acquaintance rape – all much more difficult problems. I’ve never suggested that what one wore was at all relevant, by the way.

    But I guess why I wrote in the first place, with much trepidation, was that I feel this whole thread is almost wanting us to be proud of taking unnecessary risks. It seems to be judging those of us who teach our daughters not to get drunk in public (so they can at least properly assess their surroundings). Or telling them not to be alone in a dark street at 3am. I completely think they (and we) SHOULD be able to do those things. But the reality is that it would be stupid to take those risks when we have a choice not to. Why make ourselves more likely to be next?

    None of my comment is relevant for date rape. That’s a whole other category. And none of it is about the victim being responsible. But just because I’m not responsible for the crimes against me doesn’t mean I should be reckless just to prove it, does it?

  164. Question: If every woman minimized the risk that the next rape victim would be her (by avoiding situations with obvious high risks) would the actual incidence fall?

    Statistically women are safer from rape in prison than anywhere else. So would you have us all commit crimes to reach the relative safety of prison? Of course it is only statistically, so you can’t be 100% safe from rapists there either. Why should we lock ourselves up, alone, just because there are rapists out there. Why should we take all the responsibility and let rapists have their freedom?

    As Lauredhel said – you are at most risk from domestic partners, friends, teachers, parents, other relatives etc. Being alive is high risk. That women can take precautions not to be raped is a myth that puts the blame back on women for not sufficiently controlling the behaviour of a rapist. So they can’t find anyone drunk enough, just slip something in her drink. Women stop drinking anything in pubs and clubs, go for an easier target somewhere else. Rapists make the decision to rape.

  165. I completely agree it is ridiculous to imprison yourself (in prison or at home). And I completely agree that a rapist makes the decision to rape.

    But are you really saying I’m going to be blaming women when I teach my daughter to be home before midnight, not out alone, and not get drunk when she’s out? It seems that’s what you’re saying. And I disagree with that strongly.

    I think that date rape is quite a different problem altogether. When you have reason to trust someone in particular the issue is much more complicated. But in terms of stranger-rape, opportunity counts as a risk factor. If we deny them the easy pickings, then these people we wish we could change, well, we buy some time to change them if that’s possible. And whether it is possible is a whole other issue.

    But please tell me why I’m blaming the victim when I teach my daughter not to take stupid risks? Because from where I stand her safety is worth more than a principle, even a principle I support that she should be able to walk naked and drunk down the street at 3am and be safe.

    • What I am saying is don’t give your daughter the impression that she has any control over what a rapist might choose to do. That somehow if she had made a different choice the outcome might have been different.

      I will be teaching my daughter not to get too drunk, to look after her mates, to not drink drive, to watch her drink to make sure no one puts something in it, to call me to pick her up if she can etc. But not because that will make her safer from rape, because neither of us can control that. I will be teaching her that so that she wakes up less often with a hangover, so that she has less chance of losing her wallet, phone, keys, saying something she regrets while drunk, falling down and hurting herself or any of the other myriad things you can do to yourself while drunk. All things she can control. But I will never, ever let her think that if she had just done one more thing then, god forbid it ever happens, she might not have been the victim of a rapist.

      I will be teaching my son what consent means. To watch out for other blokes who might be trying to isolate one of this friends or take them somewhere when she or he or zie is drunk, to be aware of people who might be predatory so that at the very least he can speak up for one of his friends who might not be able to. I won’t be asking him to put himself in danger, but if his voice saying ‘Mate, I think she’s too drunk.’ and ‘Hey friends of this girl can you take your friend home?’can prevent a rape then that’s what I will be asking him to do. Or to call me and I will take him/her/zie home. Because that’s all you can do.

    • Also, what happens when she takes a stupid risk? Because not many people make it to 30 without taking a stupid risk at some point. If you have taught your daughter that she should not take stupid risks to lower her chances of rape, she’ll be a very unique person who doesn’t feel responsible if she does take a stupid risk and is raped. Even if, academically, there is a logical disconnect (which I agree there is), emotionally it’s virtually impossible not to blame yourself if you were raped whilst very drunk/out at 3am/dressed provocatively or whatever. That same emotional connection is what’s used to defend rapists in court when they say “it wasn’t his fault, she was drunk/out at 3am/dressed provocatively”. It’s really unlikely that telling your daughter to protect herself from rape will actually make her safer, but it’s extremely likely that it will make it harder for her to deal with it if she is raped, and it’s definitely a significant part of the culture that makes it so very hard to prosecute rapists.

  166. Mindy, I completely disagree that there’s “nothing we can do about that”. I don’t care if she has a hangover. In the end I don’t really care if her friends make poor choices because she wasn’t looking out for them. I care that she’s as safe as is reasonably possible. And I truly believe that denying bad people easy pickings is part of that. Making a mistake doesn’t make their actions less criminal. But it does make them more possible. That’s the message I was taught, and in answer to Ariane, I had no trouble making it to 30 without taking those risks. I may have HAD to take some lesser risks, or even some I didn’t realise I was taking. But I never got too drunk to run away, I never got too drunk to be in control of getting out of a situation. I never went alone to dark streets or alone late at night anywhere. It is sad that that is what is needed to keep safe, but I did it and did not find it that difficult.

    I don’t accept rape as an inevitability so I don’t think “if she’s raped” is a good reason for anything. On the other hand I accept that bad people are out there and I think the best thing I can do, and teach her to do, is to minimize their opportunities. I am sorry that means their next target will be some other young woman. But I’ll be glad its not my daughter.

    I also don’t think that that makes it hard to prosecute rapists. Many things do, but not that. The law is extremely clear that lack of consent is all that’s needed. It makes no difference what she was wearing or where she was walking or whether she was sober or alone. A far more pressing problem is getting women to report rape quickly and comprehensively. And personally I think that’s more likely to be achieved if the women can stand up and say “I did everything sensible that I could possibly do and this is what happened, I have a clear and prompt recollection of the facts”. However understandable, its the delay in reporting and the compromising of evidence which makes it so hard to prosecute rapists. But we can overcome that.

  167. Just simply had to mention I am just pleased that i stumbled on your page!

  168. on July 23, 2014 at 6:02 am | Reply SunnyCoastMumma

    Being raped changes your life. It changes how you view other people. It changes how you view yourself. Some people are beyond insensitive.

    * So glad I found your blog (I googled Australian Feminist Blogs).

    • You’re so right. Rape isn’t just a physical thing, it’s a mental thing. I wrote a blog about being half-raped by my half-boyfriend half-friend. It all sounds a bit confusing – we were close already. But it came as such a shock it took me years to ever have a proper relationship again. I was weirdly attached to him but resented him at the same time, and found it very difficult to move on.

  169. One of the best ever posts on rape culture and placing the blame on women I have ever read. Well put.

  170. […] This stream of consciousness comment has been bothering me for a while but I haven’t quite had the energy to tackle it until now when I was shamed into doing so because some other poor bugger has come and read the post, found the comment, and probably wondered (rightfully) why that comment wasn’t taken to task by me already – I mean, especially given this whole post is written in response to troubling comments from another man on another part of my blog. […]

  171. on August 2, 2015 at 5:07 pm | Reply emilylmarlow

    This was the first post of yours I had read, and seeing the title I was ready to come here and start a comment war. I promise to never judge anything by the title ever again and I would just like to add that you are a freaking legend and I aspire to be you

  172. Women already have taken tons of responsibility on them, to say a few, a child misbehaves its a mother who is reaponsible for not teaching him well, if a husband is pleasuring out of marriage its a wife who is responsible for not being sensuous enough, if a girl is pregnant before marriage its the girl who is responsible for not having protection… Well the list will continue to build.. As soon as a problem is recognised we first try to see whom it can be blamed on.. Not that men dont face any such responsibilities, they surely do, common they are humans.. The thing is not any such responsibility defines each and every action that a man does or have to do.. But in case of a women, a girl or a baby for that matter needs to think, not just think but rethink each and every action of hers to see if there is any one with a judging glasses eager to pass a judgement..

  173. Reblogged this on agesgist and commented:

  174. Well thought out and we’ll written!!! Rape is a kind of animalistic reflection of human persona. One should be cautious enough to avoid situations that may lead to a rape…

  175. Amen. I am so tired of hearing “well she was walking out late at night alone” or “well she was dressed seductively” as a reason why women are supposed to bear some of the “responsibility” for being raped. Our society is focused on fixing the complete wrong issue. Instead of teaching men not to rape, we’re teaching women they shouldn’t wear short skirts and that they can’t even go out at night alone. We should live in a world where we don’t have to worry about being raped no matter what we do…period. Thank you for this great post.

  176. I can’t completely disagree with whoever wrote that post. And I am a woman. I am not saying at all that the rapist is not to blame and if you get drugged or knocked out that is a whole different story. But I never understood how anyone (woman or man) can get too drunk to know what they’re doing or whatsoever. Or walk around in the middle of the night like that. Completely alone. I have always been a girl, now a woman, who drinks 1 drink, maybe two and that’s it. Because of situations like this. Because I want to be able to defend myself and have a clear head at all times. But not only because of that. I hate it when my mind or my body start to react slowly. Call me control-freak, but I can’t stand that.
    Of course everyone has to decide for themselves, but to me what this man (if it was one) said has always been the truth.

    • But of course all that should be no readon for someone to hurt someone else. Because this applies to rapers the same way. Getting too drunk to control yourself. And if the raper was not drunk I could think of some nice ways to punish him /her.
      Aaand. This doesn’t apply to clothing at all to me by the way. Whatever outfit someone wears can’t ever be counted into what I just said.

  177. Theamanmaurya.wordpress.com

  178. The worst part is, the more you hear things like, “maybe you shouldn’t have been drinking/wearing ‘that’/firting/whatever”, the more you start believing it yourself.

    Thanks for the great read!

  179. The more you argue against someone, the more entrenched they become when they defend their position. That guy will probably never get it.

    • on August 6, 2015 at 5:34 pm | Reply tabbyrenelle

      Of course he will never get it. That’s not the point. No one is entrenched. It’s important to keep fighting it. Regardless of your apathy and giving in.

      • You said you wanted to change his mind. What I’m saying is you are unlikely to do it by arguing, because the other person only becomes further entrenched when they defend their position. (And yes this is how psychology works, try looking it up.) I agree that it is important to keep at it, just maybe not by fighting. And I am not apathetic or giving in, so please don’t assume. Thanks and good luck.

      • on August 6, 2015 at 5:46 pm tabbyrenelle

        Oh… well, it’s not about his mind but about us around this discussion. If you allow them any leeway, they take it.

        You have to argue him all the way out and root out the leader of the “evil” or else he has anchors and hooks.

        I appreciate your feedback and comment. Thanks. Good luck you too, and definitely choosing the battle matters. I’m all in. 🙂

  180. on August 2, 2015 at 9:03 pm | Reply mylifeasahomeschoolinghousewife

    There is nothing wrong with his comment. I didn’t read all of your imaginary scenario, but regardless, his words are correct. Dear Lord, you’d think we lived some horrible place where women are raped every second on every street corner with how much I hear about rape on wordpress.

    • on August 5, 2015 at 4:34 pm | Reply katherinejlegry

      Hi, Home schooling housewife… You’re hearing about rape a lot on wordpress because it’s it is happening a lot in real life. It’s not being made up and you’re minimizing and defending the rape-culture which means your children aren’t safe with you as a parent. You are preparing them to be food and calling it “teaching”… You said you didn’t bother to read the whole thing, and If you don’t bother to read, you remain ignorant. Bad form, for any mom.

      • on August 5, 2015 at 5:32 pm mylifeasahomeschoolinghousewife

        Lady, this is about the 4th or 5th time you have found a comment I have made and replied with a ridiculous amount hostility. Stop obsessing about me you wierd, hostile, and clearly crazy “woman”. Don’t you ever suggest to me anything about my children you stupid person. My brother in law is a prominent lawyer, threaten me or my children one more time, you WILL hear from my lawyer. I don’ know you, STOP HARASSING me on WordPress. In fact, I am seeing how to report you now.

      • on August 5, 2015 at 10:22 pm katherinejlegry

        Threaten you? What are you talking about? I’ve never threatened you. So go get your brother in law lawyer. You think humans (men) are more important than animals and do not understand what a biosphere is. You don’t understand the algae bloom in the ocean due to global warming and now you are finding justifications for rape culture. You are a reckless parent. I am a college educated woman who has taught preschool thru kindergarten, mentored in high schools, I’ve been a nanny, I’ve directed camp programs for kids, I’ve taught art therapy, I have worked with abused children, I have been on a sexual assault task force, advocated for patients on health boards, worked for a congress woman to protect the forest and ocean, worked for a non profit that gives grants to working artists globally, and so on and so forth. I’m not threatening you. I’m telling you you don’t know jack and if you want to perpetuate rape culture so readily, you’re going to meet me on the playing field, lady. Promises. No threats. Freedom of speech and I stand up to bullies, trolls, sexual harassment and abusive parents. Got it? When I was a nanny, some of the kids I took care of were the offspring of a New York State Judge. Wanna brag to me and insult me? Use facts and not the fictions your standing on and you’ll fight far better. I don’t harass people. I stand up for them. What are you doing?

    • on August 6, 2015 at 4:37 pm | Reply tabbyrenelle

      Hi home school mommy house bound shut in ignorant wife…

      Will you please send your lawyers after me too? My name is Tabitha. And I firmly stand against ignorant parenting and rape-culture tolerating trolls too.

      You too can call the cops on Katherine for standing up to the racist bullies, like they did. These two guys actually threatened an elderly neighbor lady of mine… they said they have it in for Katherine and have guns… because she stood up against racism and child abuse. You know what Katherine did? She proved the kid wasn’t retarded. She proved he suffered from PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) due to child abuse. She taught him how to read and got him into the right grade level. His mother threw him in the garbage, literally… and he can read now because of Katherine… he is not retarded and he asked Katherine if she would be his mother… but she can’t be his mother…

      His biological mother had more children btw. And one was given up for adoption, one is in foster care, and two are living in her abusive household… because the social services TRY to work with STUPID parents and keep kids in their homes… because kids want their parents. They want them to love them, even when they are homeschooled, rape-culture, eat all the animals- rejects.

      So you know what? You’re a bottom feeder, not worth fighting with and lucky Katherine would be fighting for your kids at all on this planet. Jesus is gonna forgive you for what you don’t know… and all that stuff you’re in to, “good Lord”.

      But go ahead, send your silly lawyers if you have them. If they are indeed real, they are going to tell you to calm down and stay within the homeschooled environment you are currently imprisoned and brainwashed in.

      You got NO legs to stand on.

    • on August 6, 2015 at 5:00 pm | Reply davidrichardsonhubbell

      My wife gets sexually harassed and threatened daily. She has every right to stand up to you and rape culture.

      A homeschooled mom without world contact has NO “business” judging the outside world. You chose to be a homeschooler because you can’t handle contact with other ideas and need to over protect your kids in order to brainwash them. So if you call Katherine “crazy” or “unstable” based on such a limited education you are at risk of just being dumb.

      Don’t be dumb.

      Lawyers aren’t needed and you don’t need to help men kill lions or rape women. Just go be with your poor poor poor dumb kids.

      • on August 9, 2015 at 7:59 pm pissed off guest

        Hey asshole, this is the husband of the woman you just harassed. Jackass get off your tired old ass and protect your wife from her daily harassment you joke!!! The hipocrisy is astounding! You verbally harass my wife while bitching about yours being harassed!!! Really a stand up guy for women. My kids are dumb?! You low life piece of sh*t!! When you grow a pair and can protect your wife from daily harassment then talk to me. Menwhile don’t even attempt to harass my wife old man. You pick on children and women, you need to be locked away. Grow a pair and stop picking on women and children gramps, then we’ll chat you sorry old piece of shit. Your disrespect to women who actually have a man to protect them is inexusable. Protect your fucking wife idiot, and don’t harass mine! You’re a big man spouting shit about my wife and kids??! You sorry old joke of a man. DIsgrace.

      • This kind of rubbish has no place in this thread. Verbal abuse from both sides is unacceptable, and nonsense about men “protecting” women is offensive and pretty much exactly what rape culture is built on – the idea that women are weaker, and men have the power to protect or harm as they see fit.

        Take your personal spats elsewhere – this thread may be old and unwieldy, but I think a lot of people have benefitted from it, so please stay on topic.

      • on August 11, 2015 at 5:47 pm davidrichardsonhubbell

        Your cuss words and insults are ridiculous. No one is harassing you or insulting you. We have expressed real information to this forum and others to which you have both become exceedingly agitated. I am sorry you feel humiliated and embarrassed by this discourse, but going after people for being “old” or “childless” and defending rape culture as well as illegal hunting means your offer of manhood is lacking. You have in fact lost full possession of yourself.

        You are homeschooled. It’s ignorant not dumb. No one is calling you stupid.

        You’ve taken a lot personally and feel attacked, but nothing has actually happened to you.

        Yes, my wife has been literally harassed. Not simply debated online. You are confusing the word. I forgive you.

    • on August 6, 2015 at 5:39 pm | Reply tabbyrenelle

      Did you know homeschooler mommy housewife that you are actually the one living in an imaginary scenario? That the only thing you have are your kids and their accomplishments since yours are restricted to your womb…

      You really pissed me off insulting Katherine. Go get your lawyer.

    • on August 6, 2015 at 5:44 pm | Reply tabbyrenelle

      Oh… and go get your lawyer because when I see you around wordpress sites, I’m not gonna respect your wishes to back off. I’m going to call you out on your offensive language against women. I’m going to call you out when you’re a shitty mom. I’m gonna point at you when you fuck over the environment. I couldn’t care less about being gentle or sensitive with your uncultured ignorant ass… you are the fucking problem on the planet.

      Hi… nice to meet you. Lawyer?

    • on August 11, 2015 at 7:13 pm | Reply katherinejlegry

      Hi homeschooler housewife…

      I see your husband has no “reply” button to click… so could you please be his good little secretary and tell him I can fight my own battles, “Bitch”? I’m calling him that, not you btw.

      To Shonias, who is awesome for the most part on her info and advice, but is policing language on “both sides”… I don’t need your help, thanks. This is truly about content and not presentation. I’m not perpetuating violence or harassment on the planet from an uniformed place. Because rape is wrong and it’s okay if I call my rapist a fucker. Rape culture shit asses gonna get theirs one way or another. No politeness required, about rape, capeche????

      I don’t need to pander to anyone. And I won’t. Asshole calls himself off “the pissed off guest”. Well, guests shouldn’t be raging pigs on the earth eating everything… and thinking they are entitled. God did not say to do this and Jesus, rebel that he was, would back my play not the man who calls my husband old and the wife who calls me lesser for being childless.

      If you defend the survivors of rape, you belong here.

      If you try to address the systemic problems, you belong here.

      If you validate people’s stories of trauma, you belong here.

      If you are willing to listen and learn you belong here.

      All others shall be placed in the kiddie corner where they belong.

      Tell your husband… to come fight me, sweetie, on even ground. I’m ready for you your lawyers and your almighty man.

  181. Yes you are right @sweetsound. People only change inside when something very near and personal happen to them.Very few and wise change by reading or listening to the others. Men are taught in this world they can’t feel feelings of any kind. Some believe and go , how can I put it… crazy near stone age. But in the eyes of this society they are ok if they earn money.

  182. This is a wonderful post; thank you for writing it, and fuck some of these comments and that guy and oblivious assholes everywhere.

  183. Reblogged this on Waffa.

  184. https://vredge0328.wordpress.com/

    Check out my blog for chances to earn CASH and GIFT CARDS

  185. I wish there were more solutions and less vitriol.

    Even though some of the commenter’s other thoughts were more than a little questionable, it is true that people ought to take responsibility for not getting themselves stupid drunk and defenseless. However, the last thing a rape victim deserves to hear is about how s/he ought to take a piece of the responsibility for the rape. I wonder if there’s a way to promote responsible behaviors without doing further harm to victims.

    I’m not convinced that it’s possible.

  186. on August 3, 2015 at 1:40 am | Reply rejectreality101

    Great post!

  187. I hav a feeling that person who left you the comment that it’s a female’s fault is a RAPIST.

  188. I just wanted to say thank you Blue Milk for not deleting these comments even though some are obviously very hurtful. I think it takes courage to allow these incredibly difficult conversations to play out, but I think it’s valuable for people to see the shades of grey. I know I have.

  189. Same lame excuse purported by pathological losers. These types blame everyone and anything for their misfortune and misbehavior. To them, it’s always everyone else’s fault and not theirs. Such a pitiful case of abnormal sociophysiological and moral development.


  190. What a wonderful post. On the surface, this guy’s argument sounds somewhat convincing, but then you get underneath and you show all the problems with it by reversing the gender. Yes, there are ways to reduce the likelihood of rape, but the fact that they have to watch out for rape and take responsibility for themselves is messed up to begin with. Thank you for such an enlightening article.

  191. All of this brings up the question: When did these guys become entitled? It seems that some of the responsibility should be laid on the parents. I got to tell you my mama would have kicked my butt, then called the cops and told them to throw away the key. We now live in a culture where it seems that anything goes.

    • Hiya Don Royster… uh, what do you mean: “when did these guys become entitled?” and then just blaming the parents? You do realize how white men have historically conquered and ruled, right? You’re not really placing the responsibility on the mother are you????????

      We are built on rape culture. It is also racist. You do know about white male privilege don’t you? I mean just your wondering about this speaks volumes about what you are not asked to consider daily. Women are asked to consider sexism daily. Every day. Like how black people are always forced to consider their color. Because white men are entitled.

      Where did they get this? Really? You’re asking that? Lemme know if you want some 101. I’m available to help,

  192. The victim blaming in some of these comments is disappointing.

  193. I read a few comments, and all of the sudden I just want to feel not afraid of being raped. Being afraid made you conscious and do some precautions. Can I just live on a world where I won’t do this?

  194. Glanced at a few comments and was appalled by some people. How is it the victim’s responsibility?! So basically, a guy can enjoy the “privilege” of getting drunk and being protected by society if anything happens to him, but a girl …is immediately tagged as a slut or society will say “she asked for it” …who the heck asks to be raped?!

    I absolutely loved how you reversed the gender – I will definitely be saying this to people like the sick POS you’re mentioning in your post. But again, it disgusts me how “responsibility” needs to be shouldered by the victim as well. NO. NOBODY (men or women) should walk on the streets with a constant fear of being raped. It should not be an issue in the first place – fix the rapists.

  195. What a vast array of views, and a thought provoking original post.
    I really enjoyed reading the initial post, and then became more and more annoyed and alarmed each time I read anything from Darsh. It’s clear he will NEVER understand the reality of the topic he replied to and his ongoing attempts at ‘justification ‘ demonstrate this. Sad to say there is a huge understanding gap in society to be plugged.

  196. Such an enlightening post. Still, I feel so sad to see and touch some people with this man’s mentality. If a woman get raped, it is not her fault. A woman should be respected, valued and appreciated. I can’t put the blame on women for dressing or looking in some way!
    Men, in general, have desire as women. But, have you seen or heard about women who raped men?? Probably not. The main difference between men and women is that, women can control themselves, unlike SOME men !

    • You’re right Haleemaalaide, and yet so many women stand by and allow the rape of their children and protect/defend their husbands rather than their children and so that’s how women can be involved in perpetuating rape culture. They are undoubtedly conditioned by the men to be so passive or tolerant or in denial of the rape, or I don’t know what would make them complicit, so maybe they are also the victims, but many women do help the rape culture continue.

      I don’t personally know about women actually raping men, but I know that they’ve stood by when their husbands have raped their own sons. Or when they’ve silenced their own daughters for the sake their own comfort. Mothers can be equally damaging as rape-culture perpetuators.

  197. Some believe and go , how can I put it… crazy near stone age. But in the eyes of this society they are ok if they earn money.

  198. whether a person is drunk or sober – rape is rape and it is a crime. She could still have been raped when she was sober what would this persons comment be then??

    people with such narrow minds annoy me. I am not sure what goes on in their heads and i am not sure if i even want to know. The person responsible and the person to blame for the crime is the person who committed it.. It really is not that difficult.

  199. Taking anything is stealing, so it’s wrong no matter what. If a person thinks it’s not then they are a pervert no if and or but in it. They need help!

  200. Wow…his post infuriates me. Especially how he ever-so-subtly tried to maneuver his way into staking his ignorant claim in order to try to sound rational and nice in able to get people to believe his nonsense. Ugh.

  201. I think the responsible lies with the man who raped the girl. But then, what do we make of those girls who put themselves in a position to get raped. Girls who flirt with everyone and everything around. Who can’t keep their hands to themselves. Girls who think they have a right to always speak to everyone they meet. Those girls place themselves in a position to get raped by unsavory fellows.

    I’m not an advocate for the “shared blame” community, but then, sometimes it confuses me to think that a person would act in a particular way and expect to be treated in another way.

    However, in the end, I wouldn’t rape a girl just because she’s overly nice to me. Instead, I’ll protect her so doesn’t get into the wrong hands. It might sound hilarious, but I’ve had my fair share of freebies to be certain about what I’d do.

    For that guy that thinks some girls should share the responsibility, here’s my advice. Like the response which has become the focus of this debate, let’s not get it twisted. We have have a right to act how we please. But then, it’s for the person who’s viewing us (the guys around here and else where) to realize that a Girls niceness shouldn’t be taken for an offer for sex and all sorts of traumatic experiences. If you were drunk, would you be comfortable knowing you got mugged? Not to talk of being raped. It’s about doing to others, what you would have them do to you.

    • You’re saying almost two contradictory statements here though. On one hand you’re saying the rapist is to blame, then on the other hand you are saying that girls who flirt place themselves in positions to be raped. Why should flirting deserve rape? The underlying mentality of this is where it all stems. Why do women have to watch their behavior and worry about being ‘flirty’ to warrant being raped? Nobody should justify rape on any circumstances, whether the woman is being flirtatious or not. If the sex is mutual, then it’s mutual- where both people want it and agree to it. But let’s call a spade a spade- rape is rape and should never be justified under any circumstance. Even if a woman happened to walk down the street naked and drunk as as hell doesn’t warrant for her to be raped.
      The mentalities of some guys out there is one reason I’m glad I’m tall. (Even though height doesn’t have much to do with being tough enough to defend oneself). I’d knock the shit out of anyone who even tried to disrespect my body and I hope more and more women start getting tougher and do the same.

      • I am not. I’m painting two sides of the coin and then taking a stand. My conclusion is my point. The first two paragraphs attack the issue and discuss it from two angles. On one hand, I say the girls shouldn’t get any blame. On another hand, I look at the issue from the point of view of a girl and ultimately a moral being.

        In concluding, I’ve said we should treat people as we would want them treat us. And I’m saying that, I kick against rape and part responsibility on the part of the girls.

        Now about your height, I hope it helps you when you’re wobbling in stilettos, your head rolling from the kegs of whatever keeps you from thinking straight. Lol.

        Like I said, rape is not justifiable. But since we all don’t think the same way, why not just flee from temptation and unnecessary regret.

      • Um your paragraph before the last one calls for a big wtf. It doesn’t even make any sense, dude.

      • Lol. I’m just saying people need to be careful. Before you start thinking the next person is sane, you’ve got to make sure you’re not in a state where harm can come to you.

        Look we’re on the same page. Can we stop arguing pls?

      • We’re on the same page…forget about the paragraph before last.

      • Then watch out before I shove my ‘stilettos’ up asses like you when I need to kick some ass. Thankfully, I haven’t came across any men like you. Most guys are cool with me and treat me with respect. As should you, jerk.

      • Whatever miss…seems like your use of English still needs some tuning. I can’t fathom how you’ve managed to turned my good intentions against me even after I added lol to the paragraph in question.

    • You are wrong. Here is a simple explanation of why you are wrong so it’s easy to understand:
      You say: A hypothetical woman flirts a lot at a bar. She gets (gang)raped but it is partially her fault because she flirted a lot.
      I say: A hypothetical man flirts a lot at a bar. Does he get (gang) raped? Is he violated by anyone of the opposite sex? Or same sex, for that matter?
      I’ll make this extra simple: No. In fact, he’s applauded, sought after perhaps. That is because there is a huge, inappropriately so, gap between the socially-given power to males, and socially-given power to females. If we were truly treated equally, at the least like humans, rape culture would not exist besides the few outliers who have outlandish motives. I want to be respected like white men are respected. People of color want to be respected like white men are respected. When is it going to get through people’s heads? How long will it take before people finally understand? What more do we have to say to you?

      • I agree with you. You’re right on many angles, but the truth is, we don’t live in a world where things are clear cut. Guys are stronger and many feel they can use that as an advantage to overpower unassuming females.

        But you’re missing my point really. I agree with you and you should see what I’m trying to say. My first comment was drew up arguments for and against your submission. But my stand was on all fours with your submission.

        All genders should get the same treatment. That’s what we want, but that isn’t what obtains today is it? Thus I’m simply saying that until we get to that point in our history where a girl would be left alone and allowed to keep her dignity, people have got to be more careful.

        I hope you see I’m not against you at all?

      • Okay yes I like that post a lot better. I didn’t mean to mistake some of your points for sexist, I just know from past experience that it is hard for men to understand our side of things. Thank you for clarifying!!

      • At last. This is a relief. You’re welcome. I’m glad we’ve got this settled. Hopefully the other lady would also understand my point. Goodluck.

      • “Thus I’m simply saying that until we get to that point in our history where a girl would be left alone and allowed to keep her dignity, people have got to be more careful.”

        No, see, with this comment, you are part of the problem. This says that while men rape women, women should change their behaviour to compensate. It sounds like common sense, but it’s not. It’s victim blaming, because the logical corollary is that women who don’t change their behaviour are lax in some way. This is rape culture. You said earlier that women are “moral beings” – they do not have a moral, or even practical obligation to try to anticipate and prevent the actions of other people.

        I understand that you have a vision for the world where rape doesn’t happen, but that vision still includes women modifying their behaviour until somehow, magically, men stop raping women. You have still only talked about what women need to do to stop rape, and not mentioned what men need to do, other than in a vague “they shouldn’t” kind of way. You’ve also talked about men raping women as almost inevitable, without discussing what all men (yes, all men) should be doing to prevent rape. This is rape culture. And it’s so embedded it’s hard to see, even when you’re contributing to it.

  202. Great post! Thank you for taking the time to write this; very insightful!

  203. As a woman, I have sometimes had the thought that women bear some responsibility, if not blame, in some of these situations too. Thanks for the enlightenment of the role reversal. Very thought-provoking! (However, I still think some campus policies on what constitutes rape have gotten out of control…)

    • The only thing outta control is rape and the minimization of it so don’t do that, closetedandvocal. NOTHING and NO ONE has gotten out of control about policing rape or what constitutes it.

  204. on August 3, 2015 at 3:42 pm | Reply Nycke the Poet

    As a rape victim by someone who was close to me, I still blame myself for trusting that person enough not to but truth is, it’s not my fault. It’s sad that we’re in a society that actually has to debate who should be blamed when someone is violated sexually. It’s so hard, I man extremely hard to forgive yourself and even trust other people when you’ve been totally raped of something by anyone. As much as I want to read through the comments, even though it’s been over 5 years, I’m still not over it yet. But I guess that’s my fault since I’m obviously irresponsible to trust another human being actually respects me enough not to rape me. Thank you for this article.

  205. I personally have come very close to being raped or mugged a time or two. I always carry pepper spray on my keychain and a cell phone in case it happens again. I am very vocal and quite rude to any man who tries anything with me .I do not “flirt” don’t go to bars and still it has come close to happening to me.My aunt taught me a trick when I was 17 to fend off any would be attacks.When it looks like it is going to happen scream”fire!” At the top of your lungs most people will be too scared to intervene if you yell “rape” but if they think a fire broke out they will stop and look this usually throws the assailant off guard as well.

  206. Besides studies have shown that an overwhelming amount of rape victims are in fact children, the disabled or the elderly so the “responsibility vs blame debate” is disproportionately invalid: please tell me what responsibility an eight year old child, an 80,year old grandmother or a blind woman bears for “being raped” .Rapists are by definition predators predators seek out the weak and vulnerable. It isn’t rocket science. Its quite simple the perpetrator bears all of the “responsibility” and all of the “blame”.

  207. Actually I read a book in college written by a police officer who specializes in sex crimes he says that a very large portion of rapes occur in the privacy of a woman’s own home and generally by someone she knew and trusted.did anyone see that article about the 90 year old woman who was robbed and raped in her own home?

  208. I don’t think anyone was offended because he is a man.I think what he said was quite ignorant. Its an old outdated stereotype about rape victims being “responsible” for the crimes perpetrated against them.A woman saying the same thing would have generated the same response.

  209. Wow the person who did make that comment. What ignorance.

  210. I don’t think anyone is “inherently violent” it is a learned behavior.

  211. And as a woman who has come close to being raped by three “strangers” in just the past six months I can tell you its not as “rare” as you may like to think.

    • I’m so sorry for your experiences. I would also like to highlight your comment because it’s true. Men taking advantage of women happens in a lot more ways than just rape as well, and it happens all the time (rape or not). These kinds of coercing behaviors need to be identified and highlighted so that women AND men can understand and halt what is creating and contributing to this horrible epidemic.

  212. Reblogged this on redaok and commented:

  213. They also now have a nail Polish that changes colors when you dip it into a “spiked” drink

  214. Reblogged this on project miss behave and commented:
    Dear cocky men who think a flirty hair-flip means we want to have sex with you:

  215. Thank you, Blue Milk, for this post.

    And for maintaining the thread with Darsh. Sometimes, the comments are more instructive than the original post.

  216. on August 3, 2015 at 9:54 pm | Reply RealisticallyRoisin

    I think in that situation she should, it’s like a women drowned in a river where I live recently becuase she was out of her head drunk. If she hadn’t of been drunk in the first place then she wouldn’t have drowned, people were blaming the fact that there were no fences. Well plenty of other people go for a night out and don’t drown in the river, it is a choice, just like how not all lasses go for a night out and get raped. It is an aweful thing god bless her, but the cold hard truth is if she wasn’t drunk she would have made more ‘responsible’ choices that would lessen the chance. Even if she had of been drugged, you could argue she should have watched her drink more carefully, the argument could go on forever and ever really, different people simply see it different ways…

    • No, it’s really nothing like drowning in a river. Do you really think rapists have the same moral responsibility as a river? Or a fence?

      That logic does indeed go on forever. It is also your fault if you die of e-coli poisoning after eating at a dodgy restaurant for not checking the hygiene standards carefully enough. It’s also your fault for being killed by a reckless driver, because we all know roads are dangerous, and if you go out on them, it’s your fault if you die.

      We live in a society, which gives people (not rivers) obligations to not harm others. As you can reasonably expect people not to poison you in a restaurant, you should be able to reasonably expect someone not to rape you just because you’re drunk (or flirting/wearing a short skirt/alone). If you can’t, it’s the rapist’s fault, not yours.

      • on August 3, 2015 at 10:38 pm RealisticallyRoisin

        Yes but we do live in that society wether you like it or not and you should have to think about your safety wether you like yourself or not and if you out yourself at risk then you have done so knowingly. Chance is a different thing all together but my point is, mentioning the river regardless of it having no obligations in society it is a danger hazard we should be aware of and be self aware that if I do get pissed out of my head tonight I might fall in that and not be able to save myself just as much as if I do get pissed tonight I could get raped or miss the lass buss home not do stuff I’m proud of loose my purse. The obligations thing is true but we as people are all aware that people still disobey the ‘right’ in the world, that’s why there is still war, racism and rape itself is a clear example of sexism. You can stop a rapist from raping but you can keep yourself out of thier way, just like crossing the road but then hey, if someone is going to smash thier car into your front room and run you over it’s gunna happen, oh bth then it could argue you should have been more aware and checked outside your house was safe and nothing odd was going on. Like I said you could argue forever, I get you point I just disagree, I have simply voiced my opinion. So the concept of my point of view is very much like drowning in a river.

    • on August 6, 2015 at 7:49 pm | Reply tabbyrenelle

      You’re being naive not “realisticallyroisin”.

      Many many people suffer from addiction and your idea of self control for all and being “right” is way too moral and not at all humane. People are on all different kinds of levels of understanding and health, sweetie. Young people with lower chemical-tolerance and or knowledge should not be expected to be responsible for their rape before being allowed to explore life… Women should not expect a river of violence and rape. That means something is really wrong, not that you go with the flow.

      We do NOT need to validate rapists going after the more vulnerable. I agree with Shonias.

      • on August 6, 2015 at 8:12 pm RealisticallyRoisin

        It’s not self control it’s self awareness, love. Oh I was young I didn’t know, oh I was drunk it wasn’t my fault. The only prison I could understand not taking the ‘blame’ or ‘responsibility’ is someone who’d never heard of rape at all. We don’t live in the dark ages news is everywhere. Everyone knows rape is a thing just as much as war. People are aware that these hinge happen, wherever your from in the uk the youth are taught about sexual violence in schools. At 13 I was aware of such things. I don’t care if people are on different ‘ ‘understandings’, it’s just an excuse to not take responsibility for your own actions. Addiction is another all together, I personally think it’s for people who just want I escape the world an again blame everything else. At the end of the day shit happens regardless, but if you weren’t treading the waters in the first place it is less likely to happen. But then if someone is gunna busy in your house when your sober and rape you then I understand. But then again, did you lock the doors? Good for you, I disagree and am very appreciate of you demeaning tone considering your pro against women violence if presume you’d be pro women hate. For example, if hadn’t of commented on this post I wouldn’t have had people lashing back at my opinion in such a negative way considering the basic OBLIGATIONS SOCIETY puts on people I value everyone’s opinion and allows others to speak freely. I was aware that people still disrespect others opinions but comments anyway, and here I am having to ‘defend’ myself. Who’s part to blame? Yous for disagreeing or for me posting in the first place. 😒

      • on August 6, 2015 at 8:20 pm tabbyrenelle

        You’re not to blame for posting at all, ever! Oh no, you’re helping get the feelings out and that’s cool. Of course I’m condescending, I got miles on my stance against rape culture and will not oblige the “way it is”, Kay’O?

        I love that you are taking responsibility for your actions to minimize the trauma of societies transgressions. I love that you want to help prevent rape. Dang, girl, I prevent pregnancy through birth control so I get it. I also quit drinking twelve years ago… and help addicts.

        What I’m saying is, victim blaming isn’t right. We can do everything to prevent and avoid and we shouldn’t have to. I’m working towards an impossibility, that men and women can be friends and take the objectification that leads to a lack of empathy out of it. I’m working against violence… and I know it’s not “realistic” per se. But right is right.

        Protect you, yep. Educate you, yep. But the victim is NEVER NEVER responsible. Does that make sense?

        I sure don’t wanna weed you out of the conversation,so sorry if my tone policed you too much. I’m a survivor or rape and I take it waaaaay serious. xoxo

      • on August 6, 2015 at 8:16 pm RealisticallyRoisin

        Oh and I won’t take responsibility if I my on pions offend anyone because I’m only young and didn’t know I better, I didn’t think

      • on August 6, 2015 at 8:30 pm tabbyrenelle

        Well, there’s always room to learn and grow, girl.. room to learn and grow. Thanks for the help. I’ll try to be less “condescending” and maybe you’ll try and be less “naive” in order to continue your responsibility initiative. You rock. And you deserve the best and better not worse. Fuck our low expectations (excuse my profanity please) but I mean it.

      • on August 6, 2015 at 9:01 pm RealisticallyRoisin

        Lol I don’t know when my last messages came through but I appreciate your reply and see where your coming from. But then would go on and argue different circumstances and such. Your second reply was less condescending 😊 yep I have a long way to go. Congrats on being a survivor, I’ve been sexually abused before by a partner and have accepted that , no I didn’t know he was a dick, but when I found out I didn’t leave him at first and it was my fault I was abused further. When I did leave him I couldn’t resolve my emotions with blaming him almost falling into depression which I’d suffered from as a child (near death illness thing) raised as a catholic I couldn’t believe god wasn’t punishing him(no joke he’s living the high life after dragging me down). Taking responsibility to allow myself to have been in that situation helps me believe I have the power to control my life, I allowed that to happen and won’t allow it again, so that’s where my view comes from. I like your second reply better with a reason, it helps me understand more 💖💖💖 you rock too hun xoxox

      • on August 6, 2015 at 9:20 pm tabbyrenelle

        No!!!! it wasn’t you fault he abused you further or that you were young or anything else and stayed. I understand you want to take responsibility and you have for your part. But in no way does that mean you are at fault or responsible for the abuse. NEVER. He is. It’s on him. Even if you forgive him due to his own “not knowing” or “limitations” or “ignorance” or “dickness” it was and is NOT your fault. It’s all on him.

        You loved a person who harmed you and blaming was toxic, but he’s still to blame and you are an awesome resilient human. Please know I think you are amazing. I have a catholic grandfather who raped one of his kids… when he was drunk and suffering from PTSD due to war trauma (evidently and no excuses) so it’s hard to reconcile that abuse on many levels.

        I just want you to know that prevent is what I do as much as possible too, but in no way should it be this way… even if it is. Like I just have zero tolerance. I want you cherished and never blamed. Never never blamed. Thanks for keeping on with this dialogue. You’re a natural healer too. You are a healer.

      • on August 6, 2015 at 11:02 pm RealisticallyRoisin

        Thank you for sharing, yes I guess your right but that’s something I’d have to consider and work on further I guess I was young and reckless lol. True the fact he was a ding defiantly wasn’t my fault still praying bout that. Yea that is a tough one to think about but I hope that situation is on it’s resolve path, I appreciate your replies and encouragement. I admire your confidence in your work, 100% tolerance is the forward is something to be proud of. It’s so nice to engage with someone of kind open minded nature even if it is online 😎✌️

      • on August 7, 2015 at 9:01 pm tabbyrenelle

        What I mean about tolerance is of yourself as a survivor… and being young is what you were and not a fault… and “recklessness” is part of being young, ok, but it’s not your fault what you didn’t know at the time. And even if you ventured into territory you knew was considered wrong or dangerous, it wasn’t your fault you got hurt. It’s not your fault someone took advantage or didn’t know how to be careful or caring with you. It’s not your fault for trying to make something work, and not being properly “armed” or “aware” or “prepared” because that’s not how life works. I mean, we are here to learn and that got messed up for you NOT by you… Sure take responsibility for your actions and own your path and learn from your mistakes, AND don’t take anyone’s advice more than your own (you’re being totally patient with me… because whoa, look at me preach…) but I just really want to emphasize nothing that happened to you regarding abusive or rape was your fault. You didn’t deserve it for staying too long or for being there in the first place. That’s about the abuser. And on them.

        Thanks for your encouragement and open mindedness too. You’re a sweetie. I’m keeping you in my prayers. xoxo

      • on August 8, 2015 at 10:29 pm RealisticallyRoisin

        Yea there are different ways to look at I’ll be pondering on your theory, your welcome I guess but thank you also I could defos do with same prayer for me right now 😂 god bless you xoxo

      • on August 6, 2015 at 8:17 pm RealisticallyRoisin

        Like you said I’m naive ✌️

      • I understand the idea of couching what happened to you in terms that give you more power, and you are obviously free to interpret your own life in the way that works best for you.

        You mentioned your opinions offending other people – but I don’t care if you offend people with your opinions, I do it all the time. However, go and have a look at the transcripts of some rape trials. Look at the defences used by rapists to get off. They are filled with the stuff you have written here. About how it’s her fault. Because no matter how practical and obvious they might seem, your opinions are being used to excuse rapists. I know there’s nothing inherently logical in that, but the unintended consequences are real.

        Interpret your own life in the way that gives you power and helps you heal, but please consider how that way of looking at the world more broadly is contributing to the likelihood of rapists getting away with it.

      • on August 7, 2015 at 9:06 pm tabbyrenelle

        I don’t know if you’re speaking to me Shonias. I don’t excuse rapists. And I never victim blame. Is your comment meant for me? Perhaps there’s been a mix up?

        I may have mentioned agreeing with you comments to realistically roison and so there has been a cross over.

        Regardless of this current misunderstanding, I’ve been agreeing with your words on this comment thread to be sure and I hope to make that clear.

        So glad you’ve been commenting! 🙂

      • Hi tabbyrenelle, yeah, sorry, that reply was meant for realistically roisin, I thought I’d mentioned her name, but clearly not! (The dangers of replying on a tiny phone screen and not proof reading carefully enough)

        This is genuinely difficult stuff to get your head around, and I read many threads like this one before I felt like I’d got the whole picture. I’m still reading threads like this one (5 years later!) because I’m still refining my understanding. I’m still trying to understand different perspectives and work out new ways to tackle the rape culture that is so incredibly built into our society.

        One of the things that struck me recently was that when black parents in the US came out and described the lengths they go to to prepare their sons for police interactions, and interactions with white folks – telling them ways to avoid being shot, essentially – people were horrified that this was necessary (and so we should be!). The immediate response from compassionate people was to demand accountability from police, in particular, and anyone with a gun more generally. We’ve seen #blacklivesmatter etc. Which is all exactly what should be going on. But that preparation, that teaching kids how to avoid being hurt by other people, is absolutely normal for girls and rape. No-one reacts with even surprise if you describe what you tell your daughters to keep them safe, let alone horror. *If* we have to teach girls to avoid being raped, we should be shocked and horrified by that fact, and turn immediately to the perpetrators to effect change, not chastise people who choose not to teach it, or head the teachings.

      • on August 9, 2015 at 5:28 am tabbyrenelle

        Well said, Shonias.

        On a different site regarding racism a woman had commented that it was the people who stood up to racism that seemed to get the most resistance and chastisement far more than the racists themselves… and she was so right! 😦

        And I think women and black lives are facing many of the same hierarchal issues… but I have to agree, we have prepared our daughters to be raped whether anyone wants to admit it or not, because it is so minimized and brushed aside, and taboo, and blamed on the women or girls (or other victims), glorified in television and movies, built into the language, trafficked globally by business men, covered up in the military, profited on by media… and as rape isn’t considered in the same way that murder is, and has limitations on prosecution, as well as the victims are made to re-live and prove their ordeals… we basically teach them to shut up and take it. And to live with “grace” or at least act like it.

        I purposely watched the 80’s movie “sixteen candles” with Molly Ringwald in it the other day to see what was the big deal about it in it’s day (it had come up in a conversation so I checked it out) and the whole thing makes raping popular beautiful high school girls okay because they are portrayed as shallow or “bitchy” and the film is supposed to be “romantic” because the “dowdy” birthday girl gets the popular boy (wish fulfillment as written by a man) but this great catch of a guy is the guy who helped the geek boy date rape the drunk popular socialite he didn’t want anymore. I don’t mean to veer off topic into stupid old movies, but I was shocked that this was considered a favorite among teens back then and that it was considered a comedy. I was cringing almost the whole time… It was so obviously wrong…

        So many of the films/t.v. trained/trains and conditioned boys and girls to laugh at this stuff… and to not even consider it rape.

        I’m glad you are speaking up so knowledgeably and vigilantly. It feels like an overwhelming problem… but hearing you and having your work on this site makes me feel like we aren’t just in a vacuum… and we can effect change. Thanks for lending your power.

  217. It depends on the situation on whose blame it should be on

  218. Awsome post. Would definately follow you.

  219. Reblogged this on Ema..

  220. So proud of this post! Wonderful job!

  221. Let me give you a real life example about how people can be weak and defendless: There was a traffic accident in my country in which the victim were people who stopped in front THE RED LIGHT. They were right when they followed the traffic law but why did they have to die? Because there was a freaking huge truck coming from behind and the driver was drunk. Ofcourse you will tell me that it was the driver is 100% to blame but are you going to tell me that those people who had stopped infront the red light had some responsibility too? Ofcourse you will,won’t you? That they shouldn’t stand there; that they shouldn’t go out of the house that day; or you may even suggest that they should practiced parkour ?? Don’t try to complicate the situation because that is what you are doing by trying to sound smart or maybe you are just a poor litte boy who are seeking for enlightened.
    And lastly,the rapist always looks for a victim whom they think is weak and defendless.

  222. The woman should take care of herself with responsibility. Men are very weak they hardly dare to to go the extent of raping. if a girl gives a stern look nobody will do this shameful act. however exceptions are always there

  223. I can’t even believe there’s someone out there with such mindset.. It’s really sad. Keep it up with the blog.

  224. What did I just read? Tanveer Rauf, you are babbling utter nonsense.

  225. on August 4, 2015 at 6:02 am | Reply Rahul Ranjan

    One simple advice to every Female here:
    I totally agree that due to incidents like rape happening all around the world you should not compromise on you freedom, life, …
    One thing all of you can do is whenever you go out for such party where you know that you are going to get drunk then please go out out in a GANG of friends including BOYS & GIRLS. The bigger the gang the better. Also make sure that there is not internal conflicts.
    It better to go out with a lot of male friends instead of going with just your boyfriend. No matter how strong he may be he cannot guarantee your safety.
    There is no point in finding out whose Responsibility or Blame is?
    Instead try to suggest one simple and practical solution to the problem mentioned here. As this post has already gained a lot of audience, I request the author to request their readers for their suggestion.
    It’s always better to try to solve the problem instead of spending your time in useless arguments of blaming each other.

    • Rahul Ranjan: statistically, women are far more likely to be raped by their husband, or boyfriend, or male friends, than they are by a stranger. Tell me again how surrounding myself with men will magically prevent rape? Hm?

      Men rape women when they are out with friends, while at home, while in institutions (schools, hospitals, nursing homes, disability care homes), while out alone, when going to the doctor, when they are getting a cup of coffee, when they are minding their own business and when they aren’t. You know what the ONLY common factor is? The presence of a rapist.

      • on August 4, 2015 at 6:10 am Rahul Ranjan

        A Simple tip on this would be how wisely you choose your friends. Remember I said, Friends. So it is a bunch of other guys as well. Even if, unfortunately, you chose a friend who turns out to be a rapist then there will be other friends present to stop that guy.

      • on August 4, 2015 at 6:17 am Rahul Ranjan

        And in case if rapist turns out to be the husband or boyfriend then:
        For boyfriend: Please talk before hand about these stuffs that you’re not ready for sex etc.
        For husband: A little difficult to answer, but if he forces you then you can always lodge a complaint to police against both husband or boyfriend.

      • Oh, Rahul. If we could just know who is a rapist and who is not, this wouldn’t be an issue. But because it’s the norm for men to believe they deserve sex, or that really a woman wants it even if she says no, or that their female friends secretly lust after them, it’s hard to find a man who isn’t capable of assault. Plenty of men feel entitled to sex with women they have socially invested in. These beliefs generally don’t come up until the man decides to target you. I have been assaulted twice, and in both cases, they were men who were family friends, deeply religious, and whom I had known for years. Despite the fact that I shoved them off, told them no, and even kicked one in the ribs, they still thought I was just “joking around” and that forcing me wasn’t actually assault. This is why it will ALWAYS be insufficient to tell the woman to be responsible or to choose friends wisely or to never get drunk in public. Many men who rape don’t even realize they are raping. That’s the REAL problem.

      • on August 4, 2015 at 7:19 am Rahul Ranjan

        I really admire your defence, madam. It was unfortunate to here this and men should learn to accept NO. Giving extra importance to one self is another major cause of these incidences.
        There are many cases which happen due to an intention of revenge than actually having sexual desire (talking in general).

      • I have a cousin that you should spend some “Alone” time with. He would change your mind I think.

      • so, the women and girls being raped by THEIR FAMILY should choose better families…

      • Lauredhel, what really is your point then? Women should be free to dress anyway they want to, flirt if they want to, and throw caution to the wind and not be afraid to do so? Thats a nice thing to wish for but realistically, it’s never going to happen, not until the world turns smitten with roses and birds and singing, there will always be a rapist, no im not defending them, im saying the world is a dark dark place, and we can fight to stop these rapists, we can fight to stop criminals on the streets but they will always be there, that is why we have a duty, a responsibility to ourselves to be careful and try to be safe. You cant say no matter what I do statistics say I might still get raped so I wont even try??? Rahul Ranjan, thank you for educating us, I will take your advice too even though I am a man cause well, some girls have tried raping my good looking self before too lols, thank you!

      • Yes women should be free to do anything men are free to do too, i really really wish the world was like this… I really really wish black people would be treated same as white and there would be no racism, but till then, when im asked to pull over the next time im in the States, i will pull over and raise my hands immediately. Cause in the end, as much as we wish it and it ought to be, it isnt, we can only hope and strive to it being so soon, till then, caution!

      • anobokiti, my point is this:

        “But for women it is not like that. For us the assumption is that we were somehow asking for it unless we met some kind of endless test of resistance. Were we sober enough, dressed appropriately, virginal enough, not too flirtatious, did we say no loudly enough, did we explicitly say that we are not into gangbanging, because if we weren’t entirely specific about that point well then how were they to know – they couldn’t possibly tell by the way we just froze up in fear?

        You say why don’t we put some responsibility on women for ‘getting raped’ but the problem is that we already put too much responsibility on women. That’s the fucking problem. And ultimately she can’t ever completely safeguard herself against rape because rapists exploit situations where they can seize power over someone else, which was pretty much the whole point of my previous post. And believe me if it is one thing women don’t need more reminding of it is that we could get raped. We already got that memo, loud and clear. The only thing women need reminding of is that it isn’t our fault. ”

        In other words? Bluemilk’s original post.

        Meanwhile, I’ve just been reading a new report on kitchen table discussions with CALD women on why domestic violence is such an enormous issue for their community and why mainstream responses to violence are not meeting their needs. And reports about disabled women raped repeatedly in institutions, with no recourse to justice. South Australia only just this week is finally allowing certain disabled women to be listened to as witnesses and believed, where in the past their testimony was automatically discounted. Refuges remain inaccessible. Women seeking safety are turned away.

        And you want to sit here and give me patronising lectures on exactly how to flirt? Wake up and open your eyes. If you care about this issue, do something actually useful. If you don’t, fuck off and let the rest of us get on with it.

    • Rahul, you are way out of your depth here. You’re speaking in a massively patronising way, as if we’re wide-eyed little schoolgirls awaiting your wisdom. We’re not. We’re grown women, with a broad variety of life experience, who clearly know a helluva lot more about violence against women – from research, and from personal experiences – than you do. Please stop talking, and listen, and learn something instead.

      • on August 4, 2015 at 7:14 am Rahul Ranjan

        Sure Ma’am. Now try learning how to defend your self too. Coz simple and practical suggestions are not worth your wisdom.
        As far as i am concerned i am in a mood of learning and so i am here. Reading selected fresh posts. And i’m free to put my opinions. Its your choice to accept it or not. If you don’t feel like it’s worth reading and caring then simply put your eyes somewhere else.
        And in case you are admin to this post then you have full freedom to delete​ this comment.

      • Accept this: your opinion is wrong.

      • on August 5, 2015 at 7:04 am Rahul Ranjan

        don’t force you opinion.. its solely upto me and i have made my statement and until u have anything genuinely don’t engage in stupid and meaningless conversation. I have already made my statement and if you have a better option to stop there nuisance then tell otherwise keep your mouth shut and don’t unnecessarily spam this thread.
        Anyways you can never force me your foolish judgement.

      • i hope you do have to face something that you think you can control the outcome of against your will. That is what I truly hope for fools like you.
        This isn’t about opinion, this is about your opinion being wrong on how you believe women have a certain responsibility on being raped.
        You seem to believe that women are responsible in some way for their own rape.
        Because of your belief in this, I really hope, that in some point in your life, you are forced to do something that will ruin your mental and emotional well being for the rest of your life.
        It might not be a physical rape, it might be a mental or financial, but still, none the less, you deserve a taste of it.
        Then, when you have hit rock bottom and don’t know what else to do about how other people are treating you over it, you might just then realize how wrong you were.
        Just because women have the receptacle for a mans penis doesn’t mean she is responsible for his inability to control his anger and rage.
        You mean to tell me that all the little girls under the age of puberty are responsible for being raped?
        What about all the women raped during war times, being raped with guns to their heads? are they responsible for their rapes then?
        What if this happened to your mother? Your sister? Your aunt? Your wife? Your daughter? Your son? Your brother? Seriously? Tell me, what if it were you? Lets say you are just walking down the street and you get attacked and raped? Is it your responsibility then to not get raped?

      • “Now try learning how to defend your self too.”

        Fuck you.

      • on August 4, 2015 at 8:43 pm adventurejennie

        Coming from the guy who said “Giving extra importance to one self is another major cause of these incidences.” I stopped taking him seriously after that…

    • In most cases of rape, it is done by someone the girl knows and supposedly trusts.

    • on August 6, 2015 at 7:54 pm | Reply tabbyrenelle

      Hi Rahul… I have some great advice for you and your male friends too. Stop going around in gangbangs justifying violence where females have to combat you in kind. Capeche?

    • on August 6, 2015 at 8:11 pm | Reply tabbyrenelle

      One simple advice to all females here regarding Rahul Ranjan:

      Do NOT take the advice from this man. He helps support a rape culture that will blame you.

      Yes, use your common sense in your lives… no duh, but when and if you are not able to, never blame yourself for this man and his rape mentality. You do not need a man’s advice. You do not have to consider the feelings of your rapist. You are not morally responsible for his lack of control or the way he will try to delude you.

      Don’t listen to Rahul.

  226. Join the great illuminati in America contact +2348060015174 for fame.

  227. rape… i once was walking home late at night. I had a disagreement with my bf and chose to leave. A car pulled up to the curb and followed me asking if i wanted a ride..after the 3rd time i accepted since it was late and i was cold, still had a ways to go. of course i was taught never to accept a ride, everything that could go wrong i thought of..i chose to ignore my intuition..i thought well what are really the chances..so he actually drove me to my apt complex parking lot, and asked if i had plans and if i wanted to have a couple beers..i thought no, but it is friday and im upset my plans were ruined, he did bring me home so why not. stopped at the liquor store and he took me to a taco shop he worked at, he had closed so he had the keys. i had marijuana on me so i rolled a blunt and asked if he smoked. He said no but he would. after that i drank one beer..baby sat it to pass time. i not once flirted, laughed, smiled or gave him any sign whatsover. i seemed bored because i was and had the eeriest of feeling i should not be there. i asked to go home and as we were almost to the door he attacked me, lunged at me and i screamed and fought him back, he then stopped and offered me money i said no let me out. he said ok…now im walking behind him watchimg carefully for any moves..i needed to get him to unlock the door or else id be doomed. as he puts the key in he quickly turns around and throws me to the ground straddling me and pressing his face into my neck and bit me so hard it felt like he tore my neck. i continuously punched whatever part of his head i could and screaming my lungs out for him to stop and he kept repeating to me he was going to rape me in spanish., im going to rape you yes! im going to rape you, were his words.after punching him many times he got up and said oh so your going to hit me!! ok im locking you in here, as he opened the door i pushed through as hard as i could and ran. he chased me down with his truck and drove straight at me, i grabbed a gray trash can like the ones in high school and threw it on his hood as i dogged to the side away from the car. i then ran and ran without stopping as fast as i could possible..kept seeing a different truck passing me every street i passed i finally got to a 711 and hid behind the dumpsters as i called police. i take responsibility for being stupid and accepting a ride from a total stranger, and even after being in the parking lot of my home i should have stayed home. but i never asked to be raped. it never meant it was ok for him to try.i went home and weeped all night on my bathroom floor of how tramatized i was. remembering it now makes me cry. i do feel responsible for putting myself in that situation, never again will i. but it still doesnt make it ok for rapist to rape. luckily i was not raped but many are not so lucky..

  228. Reblogged this on 3wwwblog and commented:
    Rape is a disdusting act violating the physical and mental integrity of another person out of base motives.
    There is no circumstance under which rape can be justified, ever! (being drunk, being married to the victim, etc.) The raper is solely responsible for his deed, fullstop!! Those trying to impose part of the guilt upon the victim is trampling on fundamental human rights.
    Where did a raper respect the feedom of choice and the human dignity of his victim? The raper is causing permanent psychological injuries, lasting throughout the life of the victim. The punishment ot the reaper should be accordingly.

    Anybody tolerating rape or not raising a firm, loud voice against rape is having his share in this crime.

  229. The problem with issues like this is, they always turn into male versus female arguements, women feeling like men have no right to even think they understand what women go through and men getting frustrated like, hell, you dont know what we go through and for some societal cliches and other fucked up reasons we cant talk about. In the end, we both will never understand each other, I have not read his other comments (this man who raised this comment) but I kind of get the feeling he is being misunderstood under the “heregoesanotherguytalkingshitaboutsomethingheknowsnothingabout” From all he said before, I do agree, we all have to take some responsibility man or woman for some situations we find ourselves in, the world is a dirty filthy place filled with evil people, even a child buying ice cream from an ice cream truck may fall victim to some insane serial killer who goes around poisoning kids, the duty to exercise caution will always and forever remain on us, again, whether man or woman, lets not look at this from a this sex that sex angle, everyone can get raped, your example made that pretty clear. I am not one of the male species lols who think women should dress this way or act that way, but well, when youre going to a party where you know there will be alcohol, possibly drugs and will probably run all night long, you have the responsibility of saying oh i wont get this drunk, I will try to exercise some control, I will leave if things get too crazy, even, hey im staying away from the Jocks tonight, rape can happen at anytime, anyhow, Im not disputing that, and well, Im not saying go hide yourself in a room and stay away from the evil evil world, but when its all said and done, we have to realise not everyone is a good person and some situations can mess our lives up forever, in that sense, we have to exercise caution, when we fail to do so…well we arent to blame, but we could have been a little bit more responsible right?
    I’d like to share something my father says a lot with you guys now,
    “People go through painful experiences and cry and wail and grow paranoid and afraid and the world sympathizes with them, cries with them, but sadly it seems, we are so busy sympathizing and cursing at the evils of this world, we fail to learn lessons from them”

    • on August 4, 2015 at 3:50 pm | Reply davidrichardsonhubbell

      Everything you’ve been arguing is justifying rape Anobokiti. I guess that makes it okay for cops to keep killing black men and we won’t bother looking at the white supremacist systems or the massive incarceration system that sets black men up in the first place. It’s on you to avoid the situations… right? It’s all on you.

      • I recall mentioning that that we should fight the system so there isn’t racism or sexism and rape (implied) anymore, but my point is, its not going to happen anytime soon, the world isn’t just going to turn all roses and daisies as much as we wish it would, that doesn’t mean we should stop trying, im not saying we shoulf stop trying. What I’m saying is, while we try, we ought to exercise caution… we have to be responsible. I know this is making me seem unsympathetic and really mean, like, someones been raped and you’re saying next time be.careful, but I (as you can see in my comments) am for cry with them, hug them and draw lessons.from them. I don’t know.how else to put this, nothing justifies rape, I get it, but please for Christs sake, let us be careful!!!

      • on August 6, 2015 at 4:50 pm davidrichardsonhubbell

        You recollection isn’t good enough, my friend.

        Of course people should be allowed to be cautious and preventative regarding all manner of life experiences and based on those life experiences.

        And those that would and will break status quo should.

        Women should not accept that the world is dangerous and adjust accordingly according to tyranny or oppression. My wife taught me that and I’m grateful to her.

        I hope you won’t justify/accept the rape-culture and the excessive force, police brutality and killing of black men and women just because you prefer your sense of safety.

        My wife is not safe any day she walks past my neighbors. They are racist and rapist not just sexist and homophobic and they harass everyone. My wife is one of the only people willing to stand up to them.

        I’d hope now you’d extend the same…

        Yes, the systems exist and people should be aware. But safe? Careful? or just tolerant of what has gone on too long and should not be tolerated? NO. We will not tolerate what has been spoiled by the “father”.

      • Well I think you misunderstood, but your point is well noted, I dont consider it toleration though, I consider it dealing wit what is the best way you can while fighting it the best way you can. Look at all these comments up on here, Its obvious we all recognise rape as unacceptable and are all talking about hos it must stop, but talking and wishing it wasn’t alone never cuts it as much as its part of the process of creating awareness. The way I see it is, preach rape prevention as well! Instead of turning every person who does words around and saying hah you are saying we should be careful so clearly you are supporting rape, like, how does that mean justifying rape? Truth is eventually it will happen, we hope it does happen, that rape will no longer be an issue, but till then, shouldnt we protect ourselves? Well, if that is me justifying a social vice because of my sense of safety, I apologise but I really doubt Ill change lols I’d rather be a little safe than not at all.

      • on August 7, 2015 at 8:36 pm davidrichardsonhubbell

        Unfortunately you’re right about the rape culture continuing, yes. And those people who take self defense, or try to prevent rape how they see fit for their personal reasons and needs, I do not begrudge. I only mean to distinguish blame. The victim is not to blame if she failed to learn karate. She is not to blame if she was drunk. That’s my point. Justifying the rape is to say she should have had common sense and it’s her fault if she didn’t. Maybe someone doesn’t have any common sense. She doesn’t deserve to be raped for being without common sense. It was not her fault for walking out at night in a dangerous place and having no common sense. It is the rapists fault. She doesn’t deserve it even if she “led him on” (and the same goes for male victims of rape of course.) So that’s what I meant and I see your point about prevention for those who can and want to. There’s no guarantee the “preventions” will work, either… so we need to create better and new laws regarding rape. And we do need to refine the language about it. Some women, no matter how many precautions they take will not be able to prevent rape and we are putting too much emphasis on the victims and their prevention and not enough on educating and caring for boys in the first place, so that they won’t. If it’s not inherent in the nature of boys, we should be able to care for and educate them better. And this is not idealism. It’s vision and evolution.

        Thanks for the conversation. I appreciate it.

      • anobokiti, I agree that you aren’t justifying rape, and that it seems like the practical approach to the world as we find it. The problem is, there are unintended consequences to this stuff. The consequences aren’t logical – there’s nothing in what you say that actually makes rape OK, however, exactly those arguments are constantly used by rapists as defence in court, and it works. It also works in the court of public opinion. If you say women should keep themselves safe, juries and the media will assume that if a woman isn’t safe, it’s her fault for not keeping herself that way, and not really that of the rapist. Of course that’s utterly illogical, but that’s what rape culture is.

        And also, the fact is women have been getting this message drilled into them since they were tiny, there is simply no need to restate it. The world is full of messages telling women to avoid being raped, and almost completely devoid of messages telling men not to rape. If this were not the case, the poor logic I referred to in my previous paragraph wouldn’t exist, and telling women to be safe might be able to be practical advice, instead of a contribution to rape culture. So not telling women to stay safe is actually part of the change you (and nearly everyone here) wants to see. It’s part of making the world safer. Which is absurd, but so is the rape culture we’re fighting.

      • anobokiti: I’m all for preaching rape prevention. Here is a list of tips: https://slutwalkphoenix.wordpress.com/how-to-prevent-rape/

  230. You eloquently described a horrific possibility that is to likely to happen. Men view rape differently and could never relate with a woman unless they experience a variation of it for themselves. Who says a woman shouldn’t be able to drink as much as a man and then go home safely. I think the more obvious problem is societies double standard that has yet to change.

  231. We live in a patriarchal society which naturally has an impact on the way many men view women. Whoever said that women are sometimes responsible for the rape – I’d like to inform you that my ex-boyfriend told me that exact same thing when he raped me 12 times a day. As I was brainwashed in my manipulative relationship and have spent the past 2 years working through those traumas I would like to say that I am deeply offended as a victim of rape that you may suggest to another woman working to overcome those traumas that she is to blame. In no way is a rape victim responsible for such diminishing act. A woman’s responsibility is to say NO, and it ends with that single word. I strongly suggest you re-think your word use before accusing women to be responsible for the trauma they endure.

  232. Very interesting…

  233. on August 4, 2015 at 3:47 pm | Reply belindaaclem

    Does the same apply to a child? I was only 7 when my uncle made me “play with him” because I had asked him to play Mario with me. Or how about 5 year later (no memory of the first time thanks to a defence mechanism called repressed memory) when I slept on the couch of this uncles house while my mom slept in the guestroom because I didn’t want to sleep on the floor. Am I to take responsibility for this because I stayed up past my bedtime playing video games or because I slept on the couch? I think not, the fault lies ONLY with my drunk uncle! I did nothing wrong!

    • I can identify Belinda.

    • of course it wasn’t your fault. the way I see it, as an adult we should all have percausions..not in every situation but for me I accept I made the mistake of taking a ride from a stranger although it still doesn’t put me to blame, I didn’t ask to be raped by accepting to hang out. so many children are raped and its mostly by the people closest, I’m so sorry it happened to you. I wasn’t raped, but I could’ve and that was his intension.I know what it felt like after, the what if it would’ve happened, the feeling if being held down and its all over this is it. your uncle is a sick bastard and I hope karma gets him if not the police. for children its so hard to speak out but if they don’t other children will fall victim while the pervert nasty f*** keeps freely raping-_- its a very sad world..so many pedofiles free, so many children in the world. noones safe, there’s gang initiations shooting random people, they just found a 60 yr olds body up the street from my house, they have found baby’s bodies in dumps, kidnappings, sex and organ trafficing, murders, rape, beatings of homosexual people. I do agree with people, everyone practicing being safe.. if your out alone have some pepper spray, a taser, a knife even..something to defend our self’s in case of an emergency or to help others being attacked. try not to walk alone late at night. or if your drunk call a friends and wait around a public area where there’s light and people. people approach you, say nothing, ignoring them or saying my friend is on her/his way. gas ADULTS we can be precautions. children can’t but parents can be precautions for the children.

      • Unfortunately for me there will be no police. Because there were never any charges pressed (I was never believed), he actually lives with my mom right now. She is always welcome at my home but my four girls are never allowed in hers. He is also now disabled but his own fault, he broke his leg and refused to move after so now can no longer walk. All I hope is he drinks and smokes himself to death, sooner rather than later.

  234. What a powerfully succinct response!

  235. All I want to say. Is amen to the last statement you stared

  236. Thank you for writing this, a searing response to such an ignorant statement. Here is my take on rape and rape culture: http://everydayvoices15.com/2015/08/04/rape-is-rape-is-rape-is-rape-period-no-if-ands-or-buts/

  237. Reblogged this on LOUD VOICE.

  238. There are few men in the world that understand the vulnerability of being a rape victim. And it’s never the ones you want to know it.

  239. Why dont we just kill all white heterosexual men?? All they do is rape oppress and microaggress. Seems like a simple solution to me.

    • on August 5, 2015 at 4:39 pm | Reply katherinejlegry

      Well maybe not all of them, but certainly you, wilson.

      • Hi Katherine. Hope all is well. What do you think about interning them in castration camps instead? Round up all the white heterosexual men and put them in camps run by wiccans where they can have their devil penises cut off and taught to worship the Goddess?

      • on August 8, 2015 at 7:16 am katherinejlegry

        Um, I don’t think about that at all. Yikes!

        Hope you’re okay too, Wilson… because that was an especially retarded comment, even from you.

        Take it easy.

  240. No matter what choices we make, no one deserves to be raped.

  241. Regardless of who’s right, the best antidote is compassion. Compassion for the suffering of others. Courage to acknowledge and to share our own feelings of being abused in a safe environment where we know we won’t be judged or shamed for the pain that we carry. It’s as if the entire human species is in group therapy together. The quicker we catch onto that fact, the quicker we can all heal.

  242. Thank you Rahul for your concern, however, it is not necessary. What appears to be your Middle Eastern culture is showing. You are talking down to women as if we are not capable of making responsible decisions or protecting ourselves. It is insulting. Women in this country work, play, laugh, cry, love, make love, and make our own decisions. We do not have to have a man in our lives to protect or direct us. We don’t need anyone to tell us how to act, dress or be. No One, No One has the right to decide what happens in our lives and to our bodies but us. Even if I decide to walk naked down the street, no one has the right to touch me unless I allow it. We have moved past the antiquated idea that when a woman is abused in any way, “she deserved it” so don’t talk down to us or come at us like we need your advice. Unfortunately, no one is safe from harm in today’s world. There are murderers, sexual predators, rapists, kidnappers, robbers, burglars, drunk drivers and/or extremists around every corner. Do we live in fear because you have decided that we are “the weaker sex”? The most feminine woman can be more intelligent, stronger and wiser than any man or other woman so you might want to choose your battles.

  243. How about we all try really hard not to rape. That’d be nice.

  244. Reblogged this on TRUTH ODG.

  245. on August 5, 2015 at 7:05 am | Reply lifehardshipsandmore

    Reblogged this on Lifehardshipsandmore.

  246. on August 5, 2015 at 7:47 am | Reply lifehardshipsandmore


    For you to suggest that women should take responsibility for being raped is ridiculous! It’s not women’s fault that men feel the need to over power women and to think that they have a right to do what they do!

  247. Oh my god this is so on point THANK YOU.
    That guy needs to stfu and listen before he ever speaks on the topic again. Better yet, he can just see himself out like the human garbage that he is. Ew.

  248. on August 5, 2015 at 9:45 am | Reply Riikka's art

    Reblogged this on no refunding and commented:
    We shouldn’t teach people how not to get raped. We should teach people not to rape.

  249. I am pretty sure that some of us reading have been in a situation where they have had one to many and been in situations where there guard is down. But that does not give the right to others to violate another person whatever the circumstances.

  250. on August 5, 2015 at 7:45 pm | Reply elles look on life

    you have my admiration

  251. Thank you for this, reblogging for sure. My last few posts have been all about victim blaming

  252. What kills me about the argument that women “asked for it” or however you want to word it is that the argument is always based on the idea of a woman walking through some sleazy alley at night, when in reality this is usually not the case. Most rape is perpetrated by someone the survivor knows (friend, family, neighbor, date, etc). Very rarely is a woman randomly assaulted — though it does happen. So should we not trust anyone? Should we isolate ourselves, only interacting with other women (not guarantee you won’t be assaulted)?

    Anytime someone throws up this argument, I always shoot back with the question that if men really have such little self control that merely showing interest in them or showing a bit a skin is enough to turn them into raging beasts, shouldn’t men be locked away? Should they hold positions of power or authority, because that clearly doesn’t sound like the kind of person I want making important decisions. This usually ends the argument pretty quickly.

  253. Whenever I see someone make this assertion, I often wonder, “What responsibility? Is she supposed to go back in time and un-rape herself?”

  254. on August 6, 2015 at 2:24 am | Reply Matt On Accident

    Diphtheria culture’s so dangerous,
    Biohazard culture’s outrageous ,
    I think we might pray
    We don’t see the day
    Bioweapon “Rape Culture’s” contagious!

  255. Rape and sexual assault can happen anywhere to anyone.

    I was attacked at 9 years old by a 17 year old that had just broken out of juvenile prison, while on my school campus. I fought him off, but what if I hadn’t? Should I take some responsibility for going to school and wearing my school uniform at exactly the correct length and looseness that it should have? Maybe for my genes? My youth?

    I agree that women should be more careful. We have that responsibility for ourselves, but not for someone else’s crimes.

    I’ve had my drink tampered with before (I noticed and threw it all up on purpose) by a family friend, been attacked by a staunch Catholic I grew up with since kindergarten.

    How do you prepare for things like that?

    As you said, rape ends when men stop raping. There are tribal cultures where women walk around naked and are never touched but by their husbands, and Islam countries where fully covered women are still raped. It’s not what a woman wears or doesn’t wear that causes rape.

    It’s the man who does it.

    • If we look at look at the blame vs responsibility thing, let’s examine that under a microscope.

      If I step outside my front door, am I immediately to accept responsibility for anything and everything that might happen to me? It would hardly be my fault if I looked both ways before crossing the road, did everything right, and yet still ended up being hit by a car, clearly the blame belongs with the driver – but do I deserve any of the responsibility for taking that risk in crossing the road anyway?

      No, I don’t. I haven’t done anything wrong, and the responsibility rests with the driver.

      If we open up the idea that victims are responsible for the crimes against them then all of a sudden a lot of people can use that argument to squirm out of a lot of situations. I put my money in a bank – a rogue banker could say, as they steal my money ‘well, it’s your responsibility as you put the money there’. We really don’t want to go down that slippery slope, and we certainly don’t want to hand that sort of power to monsters who commit far more serious crimes like rape and murder.

  256. Reblogged this on nattujlw and commented:
    The truth is the truth. And the truth is this: Men are assholes and it’s in their nature to somehow blame everything on a woman. No matter what it is, the woman is at fault. When it comes to rape, I don’t think women need to even justify themselves for anything. Punishment for rape, shouldn’t be jail or anything related to law; it should be rape for rape. They should know what it feels like.

  257. The truth is the truth. And the truth is this: Men are assholes and it’s in their nature to somehow blame everything on a woman. No matter what it is, the woman is at fault. When it comes to rape, I don’t think women need to even justify themselves for anything. Punishment for rape, shouldn’t be jail or anything related to law; it should be rape for rape. They should know what it feels like.

  258. […] — writer Andie Fox in her Blue Milk blog post But why shouldn’t she take some responsibility for the rape? […]

  259. Well said. I can’t accept the idea that being drunk is an open invitation to non-consensual sex. Point well made.

  260. on August 6, 2015 at 3:51 pm | Reply treatwilliams

    For this analogy to work the guy would have to initially have left the bar with the group of potentially sex-seeking guys

  261. on August 6, 2015 at 4:00 pm | Reply treatwilliams

    If you went home with a guy, then his mates turned up unexpectedly and gangbang raped you, you’d be neither to blame nor responsible. No one could be expected to pay heed to every small possibility going. I’m not even intelligent, but even I can see the logic in this post isn’t good. But rape suckz, I’m with you on that. Who the fuck goes around raping people?

  262. BTW, I do completely agree with you on all points. It is never, ever someone’s fault for being raped as, by definition, they did not agree to the action. This is a good way to try and help people understand that. Thank you for sharing.

  263. […] But why shouldn’t she take some responsibility too for the rape?. […]

  264. Reblogged this on emmarosengo and commented:
    preach it

  265. Reblogged this on BookStalkist and commented:
    I shall take some time to read the original piece. However, the present one is a more than befitting reply for those who have been hidden all this while and thanks to internet age, are getting exposed, intentionally or intentionally now. Kudos to you for coming back so rationally.

  266. People that argue like that guy just don’t want to take responsibility themselves quite often and deep down in his psyche he probably doesn’t like the fact he may feel the responsibility of being a man in this situation and he feels attacked! this frightens him and he lacks the intelligence, experience and compassion that is needed. THIS IS ALSO THE PROBLEM with the perpetrators in the first place and unless it happens to them……I’m not sure they’re capable of truly understanding. Maybe if it was his daughter or mother he would feel differently!!

  267. Reblogged this on wildmamas.

  268. on August 7, 2015 at 4:48 pm | Reply John Finster

    While the person (probably man’s) comment makes a distinction between blame and responsibility, unfortunately, he fails to understand that the only one who can do so is the victim. Otherwise, we are degraded with social judgmentalism. That someone gets drunk with their friends isn’t an invitation for abuse. Responsible adults know not to rape another person whether drunk or sober.

    Blame and responsibility do have a part in the sad reality of abuse, and ultimately both fall on the victim’s shoulders. After being raped, we must first find a way to shift the blame away from ourselves, if for no other reason than to survive the ordeal. Later, as we thaw our way through the traumatic experience, a very late after outcry, denial, flashbacks, acceptance, healing, when we start to reintegrate the experience into the whole of our lives, we might take some responsibility in a more reasonable way.

    When a child is abused, we tend to blame the perpetuator, which at the moment does provide an immediate sense of safety for the victim because it seems to arrest the offending behavior. As the victim learns from his/her own experience though and does grow in his/her own sense of responsibility, long-term blaming only retards what would have otherwise been a normal growth process.

    As a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, I have to say the presumption one person can foist is or her reality onto another – whether intellectually, emotionally or physically – is fundamentally wrong. Our behaviors reflect our thoughts, which in turn affect our emotions. As much as each individual heals in his/her own way, each of us must likewise reconcile (take responsibility) for our own lives.

    Now, try and TELL that to a parent whose child has just been abused. To think that parent would not blame a perp is a stretch and to expect the parent to take total responsibility for the child is also a stretch.

    As a whole, the human race has a long ways to go. And, as a survivor myself, I believe we’ll get there much sooner and a lot safer if we learn to recognize and control our own impulses out of which we foist our own karmic misconceptions of reality onto others.

    So, yes, blame and responsibility do play into the whole of things. But each belong uniquely to the individual, not the other guy — unless you like to tumble.

  269. There’s so many flipping things we as women get blamed for..its so stupid.what crazyness we surrounded in.!!!bull!

  270. From the bottom of my heart, thank you for your words on this issue.

  271. […] But why shouldn’t she take some responsibility too for the rape?. […]

  272. Reblogged this on adashofwitandsugar and commented:
    This is one of the most simple and perfect ways to explain a rape situation than all others I’ve read. And if this doesn’t make men (yes, not all men, but unfortunately all women have to be aware that they just might get raped – so if you’re not a man in the category that’ll rape a woman, please don’t make this about you) then you have to wonder.

  273. The one thing I keep wondering is how much precaution do men feel the need to take vs how much precaution women are forced to take and how much more precautions are men going to push on women before they (men) understand.

  274. @dash if u havent been rapped then how about u rather not comment u cant put your self in other people shoes if u havent been there even guys can get raped but 99% of the time its women if u have to avoid all situations then u might as well never leave home

  275. Geez, the person who wrote is clearly misleading. I mean, the guy who commented obviously was right, you gotta be careful, man or woman, anything could happen to us if we don’t take care of ourselves. NOT every rape case means lack of responsibility from the victim. But keeping the most horrible case of rape and saying all the rape is the same is totally out of sense. Yes, in some cases, some time women’s carelessness makes them responsible of the crime, but indeed not guilty.

  276. As a male, I would say the act of raping anyone is inhuman, as such those responsible for this act, have no rights in my eyes. There is no excuse for those responsible for this barbaric inhuman act. The female in particular, has to be so cautious, especially around any male she does not know. Smiling at strangers in a bar and inviting them to a party, is an absolute no no.

  277. Wow. I probably just spent an hour reading through this blog, and I see soo soo many things wrong here. It’s 10:00 here now (just as a reference to how long this message took to write) (I don’t even know how I got here, and yeah, I know this was originally 5 years ago, but I do see some recent comments)(and this will probably be deleted anyway, because she’s moderating it, and my opinion disagrees with all the women here….)

    I know I’m going to get attacked for this post, but, maybe a few people will wake up.

    Darsh is stating things wrong, but I think what he’s trying to say is correct.

    His wording is absolutely wrong, and you all are focusing on specific word meanings rather than the idea he’s trying to express. I’m not a communications major, so I may state things incorrectly also, please try to follow my thought intent. USE YOUR HEAD. THINK ABOUT SIMILAR LIFE EVENTS

    No, rape victims are not to blame. No, rape victims are not responsible in any way for being raped. But also, not all rape victims are rape victims just because they SAID they didn’t want to have sex! (read it all before you bitch.)

    For RAPE, there are SOME situations where the victim COULD have been more CAUTIOUS, and careful. Should she have to be? No. Should I have to be walking through a bad neighborhood with a hand full of hundred dollar bills? No. Facts of life, rape happens. Robbery Happens. Even paying attention to every details and person and motion isn’t going to stop these things from happening. (And no, me saying ‘it happens’ doesn’t mean it’s ok, or that I’m trying to make it less of a crime or less serious)

    If you KNOW you’re going in a bad neighborhood, you shouldn’t hold a hand full of cash for everyone to see. In the same respect, if you’re in that same bad neighborhood, you shouldn’t walk down the street half naked.

    doing it doesn’t mean you want the crime to happen, but the facts are, crime happens. If you do anything to invite it, then,

    IT IS VERY IRRESPONSIBLE of me to wave my money around when I know there’s a higher than normal probability that someone is going to try to take it. Same goes for women dressing provocatively.

    I THINK that is the idea that Darsh was trying to get across. Nothing in life is 100% guaranteed. There’s no way to insure your 100% safe.

    In MOST situations, there’s nothing the woman did that could be considered irresponsible.

    Unfortunately, there are people (women have been rapists too.) out there that are going to rape.

    Some do it as a sign of power, but to think that most rapes are a show of power or dominance is just stupid. If that were the case, there would be a hell of a lot more male on male rapes, and a whole lot more ugly people rapes.

    Lets address some of the issues:

    First and foremost, most people don’t know their friends or spouses. Hell, most people probably don’t even know their family. You know what a person wants to show you. What people want to show you is greatly based on their needs. When you go to a dance club to have fun and meet new people, you probably don’t start the night out talking about your bad qualities. Most people try to ACT the way they think the other person wants. Could be 100% opposite of the way that person really acts. It’s all a show to impress you. It happens with people from the club, your friends, even your family.

    People have basic personality traits that DO NOT CHANGE from childhood. Why do I mention this? If the kid was a bully, the adult is still a bully, no matter how well they hide it. Given the right circumstances, they will bully again. A kid that stole stuff, is still a thief, if the need arises. There are many other personalities too, but that’s not the point. The point is, as adults, they’ve learned to ‘hide’ these traits. Maybe successfully enough that they never do them again. But, like an alcoholic is a alcoholic for life, so is a thief, a bully, etc. Just because they didn’t tell you what they were, doesn’t mean they’re not.

    Typically, I’m willing to guess most rapists were thieves, and/or bullies. Some are mentally ill, some are just stupid.

    YOU, as a human, should be able to enjoy life freely without worrying about what you’re doing creating the desire in someone else to commit a crime. FACT IS YOU CAN’T.

    My best friend from grade school, was a thief, and a bully. He stole from everyone BUT ME. He never tried to bully me(I was bigger 🙂 ), or even get tough with me. Later in life, he became a crack head. We still got together occasionally, he didn’t do drugs around me, I didn’t even know he did them till after all this! I got a good job, while I wasn’t RICH, I was doing well. He was not. He couldn’t find work, or would get fired quickly (drug use, though he didn’t tell me this. he always made up some excuse) I could afford everything I needed. I even had the ability to helped him with his bills, I gave him money to help feed his family (which he used for drugs), he was my best friend, why wouldn’t I help him? Guess what? In his doped up mind, he took it as me rubbing my ‘wealth’ in his face. He though I was ‘showing my superiority’ by taking care of him. This pissed him off. So he started taking things from me, things I wouldn’t notice, or think I lost somewhere. Then he’d start taking bigger things that I PROBABLY wasn’t going to use any time soon. Then he started taking big items I used daily.

    My point? Did I do anything wrong? No. Should I have been extra cautious around him? Really, probably yes I should have. I knew what type person he was (but only because I had known him since he was a child) Yeah yeah yeah, I know “that’s different than rape” it’s still a crime, a crime I did not invite, nor deserve. I did nothing wrong.

    Suppose I only knew someone as an adult, but still we clicked and I considered him my best friend. I didn’t know he had a past, he didn’t brag about the fact that he robbed people and did drugs, he knew how to keep it away from me. He often borrowed my stuff and gave it back. One day, I find out my house has been broken into, and everything was stolen. The police caught him in the act. Was I to blame? No. Was I responsible? No. Should I have looked a little deeper into who this guy was? Yeah, probably.

    People are stupid, and trusting. We base our trust on what people look like. (This has been proven, but I’m not looking for or providing links)

    TOKEN RESISTANCE. Again, bad term. poor explanation, but I think I can figure out what he meant, surely you all are smart enough to also.

    Women: how many times have you been making out with a guy, thinking, this is fun, I really enjoy this. But, this is it. Kissing, and maybe a little over the clothes petting. Thats it, that’s all I’m going to do.

    You make out for a bit, he attempts to go under your shirt. You stop him. You keep making out. he tries again. you stop him. you keep making out. He eventually gets up your shirt. If you didn’t want him there, but because he kept trying, you gave in, and kept making out, that’s your fault. If you decided you liked it, and let him continue, “Token resistance”

    Once you figure out he wants more than you, you stop everything, or you’re just teasing/using him(yeah, a girl can use a guy too). If you keep giving in and letting him go further, either you want it too, or you’re stupid, not to mention, you’re setting a pattern. Make out for a bit, get a little further, make out for a bit, get a little further…

    If you’re NOT ok with it, you STOP EVERYTHING. Think of it as going to a restaurant that serves his favorite food(steak for this example),and you say “Look at that steak!! But I only like catfish, so YOU are ONLY going to eat catfish. You want some steak? No, have some catfish. No, you can’t eat the steak. Eat some catfish, that’s all I want, so that’s all you get.”

    (“well, if the girl only wants to make out with you, then that’s all you get!” Duh. But I want more, so I’m going to try for more. If you don’t like it, LEAVE. Don’t sit there and try limit me to what you want)

    You’ve been making out for some time now, you’ve allowed him to get you naked. He wants to fuck. You stop him, but you keep making out, and letting him do everything else. he tries again. you stop him, but continue everything else. It’s clear where his desires are. Eventually you give in, and let him fuck you. Did he rape you? NO. Did he force you to have sex with him? NO. You continued when you knew where he was heading. You’ve allowed it to progress from making out to where you are now. You never said yes, you even stopped him a few times, but eventually, you LET him. The next day you wake up and think ‘ohh geez, I shouldn’t have done that. I didn’t even like the guy!’ Does that mean now it’s rape? “Token resistance”

    You’re making out with a guy, let him get you naked, he tries to fuck you, you push him away and go to put your clothes on and stop leading him on. That means no. You continuing to make out with him after you know his desires and how the night has progressed, you’re leading him on to keep trying, hoping you’ll give in. Maybe you’re teasing him?

    The fact that you KNOW you’re not going to let him fuck you, TELLING HIM NO, but continuing to do what you’re doing and have been letting progress is just asking for trouble. Does it mean he can fuck you? No.

    Does that mean he’s going to stop trying? Hell no! If you want to keep playing, you takes the chance of moving to the next level. IF YOU WANT TO STOP HIM FROM TRYING/DOING WHAT HE WANTS TO DO, YOU STOP EVERYTHING. If he enters her, and you think ‘well, the only way to get out of this is to let him’, how does he know? You’ve been showing him ‘token resistance’ all night, and haven’t stopped the progression, so he can only assume it was ok.

    We can’t read your mind. If you want us to stop, you better make it clear. A little push, “NO!” that’s not going to cut it. We want to fuck. if you only want to go half way, and it’s obvious we want to go further (we do. always.), you need TO STOP EVERYTHING. Believe it or not, it’s not entirely about what you want. When we’re done with that point, we’re done and ready to move on. You want to keep going, put out or get out. Not rape.

    So, in short, a girl walking down the street, naked, in a bad neighborhood, did not ask to be raped. she is a victim and not responsible for the rape. She’s just stupid. (use your head, if you know there’s a higher than normal risk, you should do everything in your power to lower that risk.)
    A girl who goes back to some guys house she just met and he forces her to have sex, she is a victim. she’s not responsible, she’s just stupid. (You should never allow yourself to be alone especially on his turf, with someone you just met)
    A girl who comes home from a whereever, gets out of her car, and gets attacked and raped, she is a victim. she’s not responsible, and she’s not stupid. (you did nothing wrong.)
    A girl who goes out with her long time friends, gets drunk passes out, and gets raped by her friends, she’s a victim, she’s not responsible, she’s just stupid. (You should never get so drunk you pass out. don’t care who you’re with. They’re probably drunk too, drunk people don’t think too clearly)

    There are a million other situations, some are clear cut, some are not. I can’t address every one, and it seems most people here are trying to group every situation into one.

    I’m sure I’ve said the same thing 10 times in here, and I think I’ve made my thoughts clear. Please, if you disagree, which I’m sure many of you will, try to respond with an intelligent comment, not ‘go away’, and don’t give me a link to read someone’s story. don’t care.

    I’m not talking about one situation here. I don’t care about whatever ‘facts’ you have on why people rape (how could anyone figure that out? did the rapist tell them? Rapist wouldn’t lie. Did they take an anonymous poll? Why would someone want to stalk someone they didn’t know and rape them to prove their dominance? Why would someone pick a stranger up in a bar to take them home and rape them to prove their dominance? That’s ridiculous. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen for that reason, but, I don’t believe that’s the main reason.)

    (it’s 1:37 now, I stopped proof reading about halfway through, so, sorry if I wrote something wrong or missed a word, I’m going to bed!)

    • Thank you Billy, that is quite possibly one of the best examples of the mindset of rape culture I’ve ever seen.

      I hold sincere fears for the wellbeing of any woman who is alone with with you.

      I’ll give you a hint – the fact that you disagree with every woman here? You’re wrong. The sexual behaviour you describe is at best being a complete arsehole, at worst case, is indeed rape. Consent is easy, it doesn’t require reading minds – it requires *asking*. Did it never occur to you to say “are you ok with this?”. If someone’s not enthusiastic, a reasonable human being should FUCKING STOP. Not expect the other person to force them to stop.

      Go away, the world doesn’t need anyone else peddling rape culture.

      • Yep – apparently no thread about rape would be complete without some dude comparing women’s bodies to property, and calling us “teases” for clearly placing boundaries on what we will and won’t do with men.

        You know what? There are things I don’t want to do in bed, too, and they can change from time to time. Doesn’t mean I should never ever be in bed with, you know, my husband. There is no natural “progression” from kissing to fucking. There are only boundaries and consent and conversations. Any dude who thinks otherwise and will act on it is dangerous and should refrain from being around women for their safety. If you see this kind of conversation among your male friends, dudes, call it out clearly and try to re-educate your friends. There is no need for mind-reading; there is, however, a need to take ‘no’ for an answer, be it verbalised or physical – AND ON TOP OF THAT there is a need to listen for a ‘yes’, and only move forward together when you are both giving enthusiastic consent.

      • You know what? I’ve also been naked in bed with men who put a boundary on what we would and wouldn’t do. And I respected it, and didn’t rape them. Fun was still had, and there was no need for re-clothing and stopping all contact in order to prevent a rape. Communication works.

    • If you were my brother I would be too scared to be around you. I’m sorry if you find that offensive but it’s just the way I feel based on what I have read – what YOU have said. It sounds to me that you thinks it’s completely okay to be so erratic and random in both body language and communication. Everything you have said is evidence of the chaotic life of someone who has put biology before intellect; that is not an insult, I am not trying to sound rude, I am just saying that I think maybe this is the problem. I think you think the way you do because you started doing ‘stuff’ too early – before completing your education; and somehow you seem to think the whole world is like you and possibly the herd of people that roll in your world. It’s unfortunate. I don’t think you are a bad person at all, I just think you need to know how you come across by the things you say and have said. Your logic and reasoning is unbalanced and disordered but it is clear that you believe that your stance is perfectly correct. That’s dangerous Billy. 😦

      • Shonias—
        ohh my lord. I asked, then told you what it was, “evaluation of scientific, academic, or professional work by others working in the same field.” so, obviously I know what it is. It’s crap. So, you’re a rapist, and reviewed a paper written by other rapist? Or you’re a close-minded activist, who read a paper by another close-minded activist? What field do you work in or that these peer reviewed paper authors work in?

        I don’t want to know about your sex life. I don’t care about your sex life. I made that clear too. I asked for numbers and gave you a reason for my question, You have yet to say anything that invalidates anything I’ve said, or even SUGGESTS it’s wrong on anything other than your opinion. If you want to ‘shut me down’ address everything I say..

        I don’t assume anything, I don’t really care if you know about non-monogamy, but again, you refuse comment on my questions. and that’s you right/choice. But really it’s the equivalent of me saying “because of this, I think you’re stupid.” and you replying with “no I’m not”… ok, well, you said it, so that invalidates my opinion.

        I say you base your assumptions on what you have read and heard. I tell you I base mine on what I’ve experienced. Yes, I guess I was clear enough for your to understand that point. Apples to Oranges.

        No, but I do think you have no clue, and you’re just picking and choosing comments to try and make me look like a rapist.

        NO, I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT THINK CONVERSATIONS ABOUT BOUNDARIES AND DESIRES HAVE TO BE VERBAL. I HAVE BEEN VERY VERY VERY CLEAR ON THAT. Anyone with half a clue in their head can tell when ‘NO MEANS NO’. and ‘nah’ doesn’t mean no.

        I love your lack of ability to say anything of substance to support your opinion. “hehhe you’re wrong” does nothing.
        Lets try to intelligently short our differences, and see if we can communicate clearly. Sure, we’re not going to agree on everything, that’s not the point. The point is to get you to see and understand how everything you’re preaching is NOT rape. I understand your points, there are absolutely situations where the things I’ve said either party could use as a defense for or against it having been rape. But, your stance appears to be, (and it’s changed) that unless you talk about it before hand, and both do not clearly say yes, it’s a boundary that should not be crossed.

        Wait, now you say it doesn’t have to be verbal. Are people allowed to change their minds during their…..session? grouping? coupling? Allowing more or even less to happen? So, non-verbally, before we start making out, I’m suppose to ask, and get a clear verbal, yet non-verbal yes as to if it’s ok to have sex with you.

        See, you’re just not making sense.

        Your NOT encouraging people to understand consent and behave ethically. Your opinion is changing with every post. Maybe your meaning is the same, maybe you’re rewording it to better fit the conversation. Talking/writing is a very flawed method of communication.

        I say things 100 times per post, making long, detailed, descriptive posts, and you come back with ‘nu uh, you’re a rapist!’ and of course, like minded people are going to agree with you, because they have no interest in listening to the facts, you believe what you believe, and don’t wish to accept what may be a better or more correct idea.

        And you’ve (I think it was you) argued that my opinions were sexist, but then suggest it’s my lack of knowledge of what women do or don’t want. You could call every woman I’ve ever been with, as friends, just making out, having sex with, living with, married to, and they’ll all tell you the same thing. I never forced them to do anything, I may have convinced many of them to go further than they originally desired, but never further than they desired at the time it happened. But, since I won’t break their privacy, as I don’t think you’d want all the men you’ve been with to break your privacy/trust.

        So, in short, factual statements, absolute, so there’s no misunderstanding:
        You’re opinion as I understand it:
        1) a conversation about the limits with clear verbal yes’s of your makeout/sex session BEFORE the fact is required.
        2) Verbal consent needs to be given (wait, you just CHANGED to it doesn’t have to be verbal)
        3) It IS NOT possibly to CLEARLY, yet non-verbally say no. (wait, you just changed that.)
        4) with lack of a clear verbal yes, people should respect boundaries and not attempt to go any further.
        5) it IS NOT POSSIBLY during your ‘coupling’ to change your mind.
        6) all men are rapist.
        Please address each one with a clear, one or two sentence answer that includes EVERY POSSIBLE SITUATION.

        My opinion:
        1) A conversation about the limits with clear verbal yes’s of your makeout/sex session BEFORE the fact is in likely impossible.
        2) Verbal consent DOES NOT need to be given (I think you’ve finally accepted this is not true, which pretty much ends your arguments completely, but you’ll continue)
        3) It IS possibly to CLEARLY, yes non-verbally say no (wait, pretty sure you NOW agree on this point.)
        4) with lack of a clear verbal yes, EVEN with a clear verbal NO, it’s possible for people to change their mind and allow more.
        5) It is ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE, AND PROBABLY TYPICAL to change your mind on limits during your ‘coupling’
        6) Not all men are rapist.
        Please address each one with a clear, one or two sentences answer that includes EVERY POSSIBLE SITUATIONS.

        I’m happy to move on and discuss further details, opinions, options, events, whatever with you after we’ve clearly established where/why we stand.


        (sigh, see now I’ve given in, and am defending myself on a personal level. I don’t think this helps the conversation. Maybe it will though, maybe it’ll help show how and why I feel the way I do, and how it’s justifiable.)

        You have to understand, I am in defense mode. This conversation has a clear opinionated base, very one tracked, my statements are trying to include many other situations that don’t follow that one-tracked, absolute path, I do occasionally mention stuff about me, but I’m trying very hard to keep this off me, and on men in general. Unfortunately, people don’t read things with a clear mind, nor do they back up their statements with fact, much less reason. Personally, I spend 4-6 hours writing these messages, I write huge paragraphs, re-read them, re-write them to try to make my point clearer and with less ‘fluff’, then I don’t reread the entire message, cause I’d just start over, so it’s possible things get confused. Verbal/written communication is very flawed, and opinionated process.

        How do I think it’s ok to be erratic and random in body language and communication? I wrote a lot, I may have said something to give that indication. I don’t think I did though. I think communication is very flawed, so I write huge messages to try to clarify my point, but few people read the full paragraphs, and just skim over them.

        I’m not a communication’s major, or even minor, so I split paragraphs wrong, make them too long, etc. and that causes people to miss get annoyed, biased against me, and skip important statements.

        My body language, is MUCH MUCH clearer, and NOT erratic or random. I’m very open from the beginning, anyone that has spent 10 minutes with me in a ‘hook up’ situation (where I’m trying to get with them) knows my absolute goal/intention is to cum. At that point, it is ENTIRELY physical, my desire is to enjoy, and help the woman enjoy a sexual encounter. I can separate sex and love (and rape and consent).

        From the beginning it’s a process, I like to think of it as a game (yes, I know, that’s so wrong.) If I can convince you to have sex with me, I score. I DO NOT LIE. I DO NOT NOT ANSWER QUESTIONS, I DO NOT FORCE. There has never been a time a girl has tried to stop me, that she was not successful in stopping me. Doesn’t mean I didn’t try again. Doesn’t mean she didn’t try to stop me again. Also doesn’t mean continuously, non-stop for 3 hours, every 30 seconds I try to progress.

        ADVANCEMENT. As long as we’re continuing, I’m going to try to go as far as I can. That’s not just related to sex. Isn’t it everyone’s goal to get a little further in life? You want a better job, less work you don’t like, more pay, a better car, you’d like the car as cheap as you can get it, so you barter, this goes on until you agree, or one of you ends the negotiations.

        I’ve never force, nor will I ever force a girl to do anything she doesn’t want to do. My goal is to convince her she wants to do it. I’ve failed, and I didn’t rape them because of it. I’ve had one woman who verbally/textually/physically agreed to have intercourse. We made out, things progressed, things were going well, I slid in, and she was like GASP!”I didn’t know you were actually going to FUCK me!” Uhm, yeah, we’ve chatting about this, TALKED about this, you’ve clearly been directing me that way. Ok, you don’t want to, fine, I pulled out, kind of killed the mood Was she crazy? Did she just decide she didn’t want me, I don’t know. I don’t care. It was really a shitty thing to do to me, but, I didn’t rape her because of it.

        intellect is very culturally biased. biology is natural. *I*, like you, not trying to be mean or rude, think that is a difference of opinions. NO A PROBLEM. People have opinions. We don’t all agree, but we need to be respectful and understanding of other’s opinions (You seem to be respectful of my opinions, though I don’t think you’re even trying to be understanding.)

        I have been driven towards the opposite sex since I was a baby. I LIKE women. I don’t disrespect them, I honor them, I love them, I place them on a pedestal. Fat, thin, pretty, ugly, black, white, I don’t care. (I do have personality conflicts with some, gorgeous super models types have wanted to fuck, but I didn’t like their personality or life style, so I passed.) I love sex, I love women. NO ONE that knows me in person fears me. EVERYONE that knows me in person knows I want sex. (no, I don’t look like a creeper, I just have a sexual personality. I’m not ‘nasty’ or ‘aggressive’, I’m more passive, I make a lot of CLEAR comments with dirty inflictions, and give suggestive looks and smiles when people say something that COULD be dirty. I’m an awesome guy, ask anyone that likes me! 🙂 (grin. joke. As anyone that knows me. I’m sure there’s a few that don’t like me, but, most will tell you I’m the sweetest, most helpful, SHY, passive, sexual horn dog they know.)

        I DO NOT by any means think the whole world thinks the way I do. I’m absolutely not trying to suggest that, or that they should. I’m trying to show everyone with a closed mind, that there are people out there who think differently than them, of both sexes, where as the opinions they (the people here) are stating don’t fit.

        I know how I come across. I come across very sexual. That’s how I am. When we start making out, I’m aggressive, but not forceful (until the lady has indicated she likes forceful, sometimes that’s established up front, even then, I’m still not very forceful. EVEN if the lady desires it, I’m not into that. I think I said that in my first post) I don’t do the ‘safe word’ thing, girls, even passive shy girls, are very clear when they DO NOT want something. I stop. later I may try again, again, not wanted, I stop. As long as we’re going, I’m going to keep trying. I may never succeed. And I’m ok with that. If she wants me to stop trying, she needs to end things.

        I guarantee you I’m way more logical and balanced that most of this world. Disordered? That may be true. My stance is correct, for me. I can read limits, I have the morals not to force someone to do more than they believe. It’s not universal, there are crazy people out there, there are people who can’t figure out she REALLY MEANS NO. There are people out there that DO NOT CARE.

        Of course a women (and men) have to be careful in what they do, and rape happens. That’s not to say it’s ok, or try to down play it, but as I’ve said, and say, over and over, people are different they expect/want different things. They show different things when they meet, they lie. People, as a whole, are untrustworthy. You, particularly as a woman, need to be safe and extra careful. Yeah, you shouldn’t have to, it’s sad that you do, but you do.

        After meeting me, assuming you were looking, you would find me funny, you would find me non-threatening, and you would find me very sexually suggestive, and I can almost guarantee you, no matter how sexually ‘prudish’ you are, you’d find me funny and entertaining.

        Yeah, there are guys like that that will flip a switch and turn into an abusive, asshole rapist. If you choose to pick a guy up, and get aggressively physical, you’re putting yourself in a situation where you’re MORE LIKELY to get raped than if you met the guy, hung out at a club or movie theatre, or somewhere public for a while where you could reject his advances, even (especially) tease the non-aggressive ones, and evaluate their reactions when they didn’t score. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR PUTTING YOURSELF IN THAT SITUATION. Does it mean you asked to get raped? no. does it mean you wanted sex? no. but regardless, you ARE responsible for putting yourself in that situation.

        That doesn’t mean you are responsible for being raped. That doesn’t mean you asked to be raped. it doesn’t mean the guy had the right to rape you. This conversation has gone in so many different directions, and it’s impossible to address every situation. Not every rape is avoidable, not every rape is really rape. Not every written document is true. Not every court case is correct (did you know, a great deal of court cases are decided on who presents the better story, NOT THE LAW.). Not ever may is a rapist, not ever AGGRESSIVE man is a rapist.

        Again, my stance for every situation I’ve been in is correct. Please don’t over generalize me, and pay close attention, I often put in comments explaining how I’m generalizing, and speaking only of situations I’ve been in, and how it’s not gender biased, etc. But I also cut out a lot (you see how long my replies are? They start out 3 or 4 times as big, and I edit them down)

        Do you have an open mind? Do you WANT to know more about how guys think? Lets turn this into a question and answer session, one specific question at a time. I’m ALL about knowledge, learning what other people think, and trying to understand why they think that, and expressing my views so that they have to opportunity to look at things from ‘the other side’. Many times I’ve changed my thoughts, many times they’ve changed theres, and many times it just turns into bickering.

        I get heated during these discussions when I feel people aren’t listening, I try very hard not to personally insult anyone, but I know I’ve said stupid a lot in this conversation, sometimes it make have been directed at a specific person. I’m sorry if you were insulted, I don’t mean stupid as in unintellegent, I mean stupid as in uninformed. Close-minded people tend to be stupid. More so because they refuse to accept information rather than be uninformed, and or cling on to misinformation.

        I truly do not mean to upset anyone or even hurt their feelings, I just want to discuss this, and help myself, and others understand the way people think, and why..

      • I don’t know why you would try to seek understanding from me – or in this particular comment box; so I replied on the other comment box that was officially directed to me.

      • 1) a conversation about the limits with clear verbal yes’s of your makeout/sex session BEFORE the fact is required.
        2) Verbal consent needs to be given (wait, you just CHANGED to it doesn’t have to be verbal)
        3) It IS NOT possibly to CLEARLY, yet non-verbally say no. (wait, you just changed that.)
        4) with lack of a clear verbal yes, people should respect boundaries and not attempt to go any further.
        5) it IS NOT POSSIBLY during your ‘coupling’ to change your mind.
        6) all men are rapist.
        Please address each one with a clear, one or two sentence answer that includes EVERY POSSIBLE SITUATION.

        Years ago I was having consensual sex with a girlfriend. During which she changed her mind and told me to stop.

        The right to change her mind was hers to make and so I stopped.

        Why is it the woman’s fault if she has to keep saying no? If the man is not going to get what he wants why shouldn’t he be the one to end things and get dressed and leave if necessary? Rather than keep trying to blame women because men cannot control themselves!


      If you want to fuck, GET CONSENT. Kissing isn’t consent. Rubbing up on you isn’t consent. Fondling your dick isn’t even consent. It’s consent when you say, “Can we fuck?” and she says, “Yes.”

  278. ***TRIGGER WARNING***Well hey there. And let me preface this – you can delete my comment and you don’t have to agree with me, but I wanted to share my opinion —-I was raped in 2012 at the age of 23. I was a virgin, the man was twice my age, and he was someone I’ve known (though not well) all of my life. He drugged my drink, raped me in my own backyard more than once (yes there was violence involved), and I was a complete and total TOTAL wreck for three years. Now, that being said, I have to say that I kinda agree with that dude. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what happened happened because of that guy. He made that decision. Those were his actions. And while I forgive myself for not having my guard up, I’m still pretty mad at myself for not having my guard up. It’s a dangerous world for women, and it’s just plain plain PLAIN unfair. But I feel like I should take responsibilities FOR MY OWN ACTIONS – not that douche bag’s, but my own. I should have practiced a bit more forethought in making sure my safety was taken care of. Plain and simple. Now, please keep in mind, this is my own opinion. I feel my opinion is valid because I am a rape survivor and my healing journey culminated in me saying – “Hey, I know it’s dangerous for me out there. I should have taken better care of my actions. I should have been more aware of my company and the crappy situation I was in. I wasn’t, though, and I forgive myself for that, because ultimately, it was the other dude’s actions that caused me this turmoil in the first place.” You have a responsibility to yourself as a woman to look out for you. If you know it’s a dangerous world, if you know people can’t always be trusted, if you know drinking around anyone you don’t know well can end up badly, then you need to take responsibility for yourself. So, yeah, that’s all I’ve got to say.

    • I’m sorry this happened to you. I understand your need to take responsibility, but maybe this is just because you know that twisted people exist and this is hindsight for you; I hate to think you are punishing yourself. The problem is hindsight comes later for a lot of vulnerable people; but you don’t ever have to take responsibility for that horrid event. You were a vulnerable young girl and you were in the company of a predator regardless of whether you knew it or not. The predator did what he did because he was dangerous. You were not dangerous. He was evil and you were innocent. It really is that black and white. Forgive him if you can (because he is sick and dangerous) but don’t take responsibility for that night or believe that you have to. Just accept he made you a victim and as a result you made yourself a victor; because even though I don’t agree, the fact remains that you having the strength to ‘take responsibility’ shows how strong you have become. Maybe you were always that strong, and maybe that man saw something special in you – something that he just had to violate.,but that was all his sickness and nothing about anything you did or didn’t do. It is also all just proof that you are an extraordinary person to have come through this and with the insight you have. As much as I want to cry for what you went through, I hope that I will be as strong as you one day. No such incident has ever happened to me but your story has touched me. Thank you for sharing your story because just by sharing it you will help so many with your prevention is better than cure message (again, even if I don’t agree with the premise of that message – because I am against you taking responsibility in any part). Having said that, we won’t ever stop twisted people from existing so spreading awareness of the dangers and how to better protect oneself is useful; but you just have to completely understand were made a victim in every sense of that word, and have become a Victor by coming through it. It sounds like you have some insights you could help so many victims with. I hope you write a book or can work with young women. Best wishes ❤

      • Aw, wow! I’m kinda speechless! Jeez Louize, thank you! Gah, I’m touched! I don’t even know what to say except thank you! You are very kind, and your words are a tremendous boon. I don’t talk about what happened to me much in real life, so someone talking to me about it, like that, just, thanks, man. I’m sorry I can’t send anything else of greater, uh, I don’t know, worth? Man I want to have a conversation with you. You’re awesome! Let me wrap my head around your reply, and I’ll come back with something with more oomph! I probably need to reread it. I just didn’t want to not say anything because I’m the kind of person who will reread this and then wait, and then wait too long, and then feel like it would be awkward to say anything then, so here. Have this thank you and fluttery confusion/good feelings. When I can put a better sentence together, I’m gonna, because you’re so freaking awesome and you deserve it!

      • You are very welcome. I’m available to talk anytime – feel free to get in touch! 🙂

      • KemdirimOkezie, your post is well intentioned and would be very appropriate for a childhood rape victim. As a rape victim myself, I can tell you unequivocally, at some point, we do take responsibility for what has happened for us, as we should. It’s perfectly normal to examine our own behaviors and learn from them. It happens very later on in the healing process and it takes much more for a rape survivor to arrive at this stage than would have normally occurred. It doesn’t help the survivor to take back, even with the best intentions, what he/she had to work five times, seven times, a hundred-thousand times harder to earn.

        The notion that blaming the perpetuator beyond arresting their behavior doesn’t help. It really doesn’t. Frankly, it’s wasted empathy.

        The victim is never to blame. When it comes to blame and responsibility, as a society, we tend to blur these much as we do justice and vengeance. Perhaps blame is the child-form of responsibility as much as vengeance is the child-form of justice.

        Children do grow up. When we don’t, that’s when we pay consequences.

      • Dear John,
        I’m sorry for your pain; that this terrible thing happened to you.
        2. As you know, a child rape victim cannot be responsible for what happened but neither can an adult, in my opinion. You stated: “at some point, we do take responsibility for what has happened for us, as we should.”
        You were not to blame regardless of whether you find yourself believing that this is something that you should do. To me, that shows me someone doing their best to see good in humanity, but there is absolutely no way to find an explanation on how it could ever be proper or appropriate for the victim to take responsibility for what, why, how or whether something that happened to them could have been avoided.
        I agree that it is perfectly normal for us to examine our own behaviours, my issue is where you arrive at the conclusion that even 1% in this situation – is your portion. I can understand a victim having empathy for their perpetrator; this is evidence of the kindness and compassion of a decent personality of one such victim shining through. It says that person is capable of – despite what they have been through – having a willingness to try to find blame within themselves; they are the exact opposite of the perpetrator in a variety of ways, and this is where and how we should be able to see that even two people sharing a common link of ‘being broken’ are still not the same.
        For example, the rapist could have raped someone just like them, but I doubt that victim would see things the way you are personally seeing things. I don’t know you, but I am making a judgement on what you have revealed to me about yourself in your comment, and I am evaluating based on my understanding of the disordered thinking that is highly-likely to affect the thinking processes of a person with a similar outlook on life and general personality of a rape victim that shares almost all of the same traits and behaviours or thinking processes as someone just like the rapist. In short, I can imagine their response to decide not to take any responsibility for the blame. Regardless of their poor sense of values that they may have held prior to the rape – they would be correct on this occasion – they would be entirely blameless.
        There are probably 101 different avenues between you and your rapist. Many roads in life take us to different places, even though lines do cross. In this particular case, your willingness to accept responsibility is more likely that your unconscious personality is being as hopeful as your conscious (or dormant) one. When bad things happen, it can bring out a different personality inside us – and that is what I mean by the dormant/unconscious personality. I have formulated a theory from the reading that I did on this but so far I have not found a formula where I arrive at the conclusion that a victim needs to take some responsibility for what happened to them at the hands of another living, live and active member of their own race.
        3. In terms of how ones attitude should be toward the perpetrator – forgiveness and/or acceptance that the person carrying out the crime is broken and so there is neither any solution or measure that the victim can take to make their reasoning or consideration of all facts concerned a correct one, I understand any thinking on that part lies within the personal headspace of the victim; and I respect that. However, like the law is there to help us find justice – therapeutic jurisprudence helps the legal system arrive at a conclusion that takes into account such matters so that we don’t have to work too hard or dig too deep to solve these problems. A victim has no responsibility for the actions of the perpetrator, not legally, medically or otherwise – in Law. I do not wish to take anything away from your personal journey – forgive me if you can. I just ask that you try to find ways to gain new perspective if you still believe it is fitting for a victim to claim even one percent responsibility. I accept you might take responsibility but the responsibility is not yours to take.
        Society, at large, is at one with the victim being 100% innocent. Even if a rape victim were walking completely naked down a dark alley and the rape victim knew the alley was full of rapists, there would be no onus on the victim to take responsibility for the rape that happened. To make the victim take any responsibility also discounts the value of the rest of us that can see someone walk down the road naked without us believing this person is asking to be raped or has somehow placed themselves in such a position, or even that MAYBE this person could do something to prevent this. Life happens -and when it does, we deal with the consequences of our own actions but when we are made a victim of something, the focus locks upon the one to blame and that is always the one who committed the crime and maybe those facilitating it – again the law is there to make sure the facilitators are the right people punished because they too – could be as 100% innocent as the victim.
        4. I don’t agree with vengeance, or understand it – though I can sympathise alongside it. The same way I can understand why a victim might seek to blame themselves, but I cannot and will not agree that the victim is in any way to blame. We have different opinions in part but thank you for your comment and best wishes. 🙂

      • Kemderim, I’m sorry to admit, I didn’t read your post through entirely. What stopped me dead in my tracks at first is the manner in which you fuse, or maybe confuse, blame and responsibility. Blame and responsibility are entirely two different things.
        I do see skipping to the very end of your reply that you “cannot and will not agree that he victim is in any way to blame.” That’s perfectly fine. That’s great, that’s really OK.

        Blame and responsibility are two separate things. In the normal course of our lives, it’s perfectly OK for us to examine our own behaviors and experience and learn from them. We start off as children and learn to take responsibility for ourselves.

        Sexual abuse doesn’t change that any more than a solar eclipse changes the earth’s orbit around the sun. What it does is makes the process much for difficult for the individual than it normally should be.
        What I might suggest is that you look at rape and sexual abuse from a PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) perspective, stepping back for a moment and remembering that these kinds of crimes aren’t sexual in nature but rather they involve sexual organs in a way where power and responsibility are imbalanced.

        Another way to think about is this: the grooming or the lead-up. As kids, we lack experience and we can be taken advantage of. Taking responsibility for what happened to us helps us to learn and grow – it empowers us to survive better.
        It is exactly because we should NOT take on the perps’ responsibility that makes this so true.
        We shouldn’t ever blame ourselves for what someone else did to us. And yet, it is as inevitable as the next sunrise that we learn from all of our experiences and go on.
        This might make it even more clear. Blaming oneself is like holding your breath for as long as you can. Even when we intend to hold it longer, at some point, we have to let it out.
        Responsibility is something we can live with, breathing normally.
        I also read where you write “to make the victim take responsibility…”
        The key word there is MAKE. Nobody should be making anyone do anything, and certainly no victim or anyone else will take responsibility for anything — anything — until we are ready.
        Lots of the other comments come from people who have opinions on the subject, but maybe not the head-held-under sort of experience of being victimized. What I gained from my experience is a knowingness that my experience is the only one from which I can truly speak.
        Having been baptized in such a fire, I wouldn’t dream of giving up my hard-earned sense of responsibility.
        Some people never get past the blame, and as such unknowingly end up perps themselves.
        It’s almost as if the first words God ever spoke were “love is all, do as thou wilt.”
        With total freedom comes total responsibility. And with total responsibility comes freedom.
        And yes — that includes freedom from blame.

      • Thanks for your explanation John. I’ll read up on the information you suggested too! Best wishes, Kemdi

  279. ok first of all the person who wrote that comment is entitled tho there thoughts and secondly you cant just assume that you know what sex that person is because of the comment they wrote. i am a women and we need to think about one thing its not just women that get raped young male children get raped aswell and no one does anything about it. so quit whining blue milk.

  280. Hello my name is Jessica. I am a rape victim of 6 different men. I was 8 years old when it all started for me. My mom’s boyfriends where the perverts. I know this man thinks he has a clue. But to be honest I wasn’t woman then but just a little girl, a baby, and I would never take any blame for a grown ass man decision as that one to rape an 8 year old. I have not read all of this man comments nor will I continue to read his ignorance. I will say that if you were in the same situation as I was when I was 8, not drunk, innocent, a big sister of 4 and just a baby to the world, would you take responsibility for his actions? Or would you spend the rest of your life wishing you knew why you had your life taken away from you?

  281. I never really understand how someone can blame the victim, specially when the crime is rape! I meet people with such low mentality and retarded logic almost everyday. Even though I try to explain to them about how their thinking is not correct, I have rarely succeeded in doing so. Thank you for your post. I think reading your other posts and the comment section will help me in understanding how to convince that it’s never the fault of the victim to those type people when I encounter one in the future.

  282. This is the first post I read after setting up my site. I read the post that inspired you to write this one as well. I think you make a lot of valid points and that some of the people leaving responses do as well. I want to make a quick point that I’m sure someone else has made (there are just so many comments and I don’t have time to read them all, though I wish I did). I think it is hard for men (and women) to really grasp this subject if they have not been in a sexually compromising situation. The simple fact is that you can’t use 100% logic to try to explain rape. People put themselves in compromising situations on a daily basis, whether they realize it or not. There are too many factors involved in rape (and every other crime for that matter) to try and break it down to simply “blame” and “responsibility.” It isn’t that black and white. If a person leaves work in the evening and has to walk out to his/her car alone in the dark, that doesn’t make it okay to rape him/her. People make the argument that there are ways to avoid compromising situations (i.e., have someone walk with you), but people who want to rape someone will find a way regardless of how safe a situation might be.

    I also think that some men and women try to make arguments (like the one left on your post) without taking everything into consideration or they have an opinion and don’t know why they have it. Or they haven’t met or known anyone who has been raped. Or they don’t understand how a woman can decide to change her mind about having sex with someone. Rape is rape. One of the comments said something about “intentional rape.” Is there such a thing as “unintentional rape” or “accidental rape”? No. If you forcefully take advantage of someone sexually, man or woman, it’s wrong and it’s a crime. it does not matter if they were drunk – sober people change their minds, dress provocatively, walk alone in the dark, and make poor decisions too. It does not matter if they flirted with you – not every flirtation, compliment, smile, or perceived interest means sex is on the agenda. I could go on but I don’t need to, this and other posts and articles and so many other people commenting have already proven this point: no one wants to be forcefully raped or otherwise sexually abused and there is no excuse or argument in the world that could make rape a logical or understandable outcome of any situation. Nor is there any sexual abuse situation where the victim is to blame, unless he/she explicitly states, “I want to be raped.” But let’s be honest, that will never happen because that would be consensual sex. It’s called “rape” for a reason, because it is an unwanted sexual encounter, whether the individual screams no at the top of their lungs or lays silently frozen in fear and shock.

    I don’t often read posts or articles about sexual assault because they are emotionally difficult to get through, but I’m glad I read it.

  283. This is infuriating. I would have loved to not have been raped! But politely saying no several times to a boy I thought was my friend was apparently not enough to to not get raped. Did I tell anyone? Fuck no. Because I was already sexually active and everything I knew told me that no one would ever believe me. But, over 10 years later I know with all certainty that he raped me and it haunts me that I let him get away with it.

    To the man that wrote this comment: the key work is VICTIM! Bad people do bad things regardless of the actions of their victims.

    • I’m sorry to hear about your situation. I have several friends who have been through the same thing as you(no, I was not the rapist.). I can’t understand how people can purposely hurt other people. But, the truth is, there are bad people that rape people, without a second though.

      Just as you take the responsibility to look both ways when crossing the street to assure you don’t get hit by a car, you should take responsibility to assure you’re not walking alone in a neighborhood with a high rape rate.

      Walking in that neighborhood doesn’t mean you asked to be raped, it just means you (assuming you knew the neighborhood) were responsible for putting yourself at a higher risk.

      • That does not make the victim in any way responsible, at fault in any way, or part of the problem in any form either. The rapist is solely at fault and the personal circumstances that brought them to become a rapist are contributors … In some cases they were possibly abused or raped as well. This is not an excuse, just contributing factors. Let’s remember that the victim is the victim and the rapist is the one that chose to cross that line and that is wrong on all fronts.

        We are guilty as a society for making victims of rape feel at fault in anyway.

  284. Enjoyed reading you. Also, I liked the way you formulated a bit different argument. While I thought this would be another cliche about-rape post, you positively surprised me. You write smartly yet you add a bit of sarcasm.Cheers!

  285. I know this is not a male forum, but I stumbled upon this article. It was beautifully written. The imagination is vivid. That is how someone has to explain something, and I hope it gets through many a hard skulls. That’s liberating. I believe all rape victims are the same, irrespective of the person being a man or a woman. Some male children get raped by their elders and strangers, some female children get raped by their elders and strangers. The thought that sex is something that shows strength, and for that reason one has sex, is wrong, and if that is the case, then I believe there needs to be some rethinking to be made in terms of what science says about the human body and how the chemicals inside our brain work, to urge us to do certain things. I don’t think I become any less of a man, or be any more of a man by standing by a victim, if support is what he/she needs.

  286. I was glancing over this post, and I am for the women. I’d like to point out though that every case of rape is unique. Everyone here is trying to generalize every situation of rape when that’s just not the case. It’s getting a lot of feelings hurt for those both pro and against the argument. Let’s try to keep open minds here and love one another.

  287. Completely right. Leaving gender totally out of it, it is every person’s absolute duty to support and aid another who is in a vulnerable situation. The blame for any harm that befalls rests squarely on the perpetrator, and is shared by anyone who, being aware of what might be happening, did nothing.

  288. Reblogged this on Kemdirim Okezie and commented:
    Bluemilk provided an interesting debate that had me reading upon rape cases, and feeling both sick and very tearful at what victims have to go through. I am of the opinion that rape victims are 100% innocent and therefore do not have to take ANY blame for the responsibility. In my opinion, there is something fundamentally wrong with someone who tries to justify that rape victims are at fault. Maybe they too are a victim of something and this is responsible for their confusion. However, being a victim does not give a victim the monopoly of opinion and it hurts me deeply to even sound like I am being hard on the opinion of any victims that believe they are even a little bit at fault. These cases are hard to deal with. Human emotion is a tough barrier to break-through. Thank God for the law being available for us to exploit. 😦

  289. I am responsible for my actions.Yes,I am a man,that is a fact.Do I know about rape?Yes,I have 6 sisters.1 of my sisters was violently raped as a 12 year old.I know what damage that did to her.She suffered a nervous breakdown,and was an in patient in a mental hospital on and off for most of her life.
    As a teacher now of 35 years standing,I know the damage that rape can do,but I agree with the contributed,I will never fully understand what it feels to be forcibly violated.
    Yes,education is vital,and so to is honesty.
    I would like to thank the writer of this profoundly important piece.

  290. This is absolutely one of the best pieces on victim blaming I’ve read in a VERY long time. You hit it spot on, word for word. Thank you! -female survivor of, ..

  291. on August 18, 2015 at 3:57 am | Reply Hiding The Veggies

    I have to say that I get what Darsh is trying to say (yes I’m a woman). But that goes for men as well, if they kept their guard up to be decent then it wouldn’t happen, except for ur average mental case. I will say this…rape (as with every horrific crime) is NOT the fault of the victim. Sometimes it happens simply because the victim is in the wrong place at the wrong time &/or with the wrong person. It’s terrible to no end & no one should have go through that. But I do agree that the (in the case) rapist at the party or nightclub or the dark alley or what have you is looking for the weakest (the smallest, drunkest, the highest, smallest entourage, least amount of clothing to fight through–typical things assailants and bullies look for in ANY situation, including the crime on their mind), Girls are by no means stupid or naive. We know exactly what we are doing when we dress in a mini skirt or a super low cut top. We are NOT asking to be raped AT ALL. We are however hoping to turn some heads. Unfortunately, sometimes we turn the heads of the rapist in the area/room. Then, she gets so drunk she can’t defend herself, she stumbling, slurring her words and probably won’t remember it the next morning. Now the racist has selected and probably picked up his prey. Again, NO ONE asks to be raped. They should have much harsher punishment (like never be released to the public), especially since they reoffend. Once when I was a teen, my friend (she had just gotten her license) and I went to the mall. We were leaving as it was closing. There were a group of boys she was flirting with all night. As we are driving out of the parking lot, low & behold, the guys were having car trouble & were pulled over. These were the days before cell phones. She stops and asks if they need help. Yes, of course they did. I told my friend that we really need to just go. She was so worried about them being stranded. I pointed out the fact that we are still at the mall with mall security to help them and phones available to use to call someone who could actually help them. The guys were being super charming, trying to convince us to help. Finally, I talked her into just going. Wouldn’t you know, the guys started their car and left, after we exited the parking lot (hint:no one had even popped the hood). Still this day, I know making the responsible decision and using a little common sense saved us from a gang rape. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind. If I hadn’t been with my friend she would have become a victim. I also know they could have been braver, more aggressive and psycho enough to follow us and catch us off guard (not that I wasn’t paying attention to other cars around us). As a woman, I’m always cautious. That doesn’t mean responsibility and caution will always save me from being a victim, but I do take as much responsibility for myself as I can. Maybe that is the only control I have in the matter, I don’t know. We are basic animals with a label and a so called justice system. Rape is a reality of the animal kingdom and unfortunately for women, the threat will never go away.

    • No, your average “mental case” is not a violent criminal. People with mental illnesses are in fact far more likely to be the victims of violent crime than the perpetrators. But way to reinforce ableist stereotypes.

      • on August 18, 2015 at 5:38 am Hiding The Veggies

        I think you are thinking more of mentally handicapped not violently psychotic. I’m talking serial rapists, murderers that type. Mentally handicapped is not mental case. Charles Manson is a mental case.

      • I’m talking about psychotic illnesses as well as other mental illnesses. People with psychosis are, again, more likely to be victims than perps. Your assertions are based in ignorance and stereotype.

  292. on August 18, 2015 at 4:07 am | Reply Hiding The Veggies

    A lot of people respond in the terms of being mugged or murdered. There are certain decisions that could increase that risk. Whether you are a victim or not of any crime is a risk in its self. I know if I walked the street of the south side (where I live). I have just increased my chances of being mugged, raped or murdered (probably all 3). Going to that side of town would be extremely irresistible of me. If something should happen while I ventured on over there, it’s not my fault, but I knew the risk. I’m on my side of town, I have a lower chance if something happening, but it is still a gamble. Any & all over those things could happen to me in my own house, so I take precautions by getting a security system, that hopefully a super nice monitor employee doesn’t take advantage of (still a gamble).

  293. I loved this. I rarely comment on people’s blogs but you are so right. To me it doesn’t have to be a feminist thing, it’s black and white common senses. rape is rape. There are no what ifs or well if she did this, or maybe he should have. No! Rape is rape period! Thank you for putting it to words that maybe people can understand better because they are uneducated and can only think one sided

  294. on August 18, 2015 at 5:16 am | Reply Hiding The Veggies

    I am really disturbed by this conversation. It’s not going anywhere. Everyone is attacking everyone instead of really looking at the comments. I get it passion is a driving force. No one is blaming the victims. Not all men are rapists, but too many are. Everyone has a responsibility to use safety measures, be responsible with their actions & decisions. There are 2 kinds of rape (maybe more) I think the point here is rape is terrible!!! Just terrible no matter the situation period!)But it is the violent side of nature as terrible as it is. There’s is a HUGE difference between the average shopping at the mall, out for a jog, at the gym, the movies, the children who raped, a husband raping his wife, the best friend since childhood AND the person with the shorts up her ass or the skirt too short for bending over (yet they insists on bending over), wearing the top that shows all (trying to drive all the men crazy) & completely drunk out of control at the night club or party (not that she asks for it either). The 1st examples are living, just living not particularly trying to provoke anyone. Just living their lives as you do everyday. The party scene scenario, she “dressed to kill”. She is trying to provoke and turn heads. She’s trying to be the hottest girl there. She’s trying to be noticed & stand out. She knows what she’s doing. She isn’t naive. She feels good about herself & wants to be envied. She is acting in an extremely irresponsible manner in a room full of strangers. Believe it or not, rapists (as well as human traffickers for that matter) pick their victims up from bars, parties & clubs because they are most vulnerable & easy to get alone. It’s actually no secret. This scenario is what those comments (being responsible for ones self) are referring to. Is it her fault no, but the reality is ever action has a reaction. There is a huge difference in saying it’s the victims fault & the victim just being responsible for themselves & what they put out there in the world. There are VERY much situations that are completely unavoidable and situations that you have put yourself into. Rapists are predictors. There are rapists that have that on the to do list & others don’t but go with it anyways. The rapist with the agenda will rape that night no doubt, but being the most vulnerable person (on purpose) there puts you at the top of the list. Being the DD or the one or 2 spread out drinks, dressed nice but not overly provocative puts you much lower on the rapists radar. Unless of course said rapist takes to you & slips you something, then again back on the unprovoked topic. It may be insensitive, but there is a certain reality going on in the world. So if it’s a topic about an unprovoked rape then why are we talking about responsibility. I actually had a friend order 1 drink at a bar & something was slipped in (we think the bartender did bc the drink never left her hand & she never turned away from it). She realized something was wrong & I took her home. A Little safety & responsibility, she was not a victim. If she was drunk, she never would have known & if I weren’t there she could have ended up a victim. You don’t have to lock yourself away, but on the other hand there is nothing wrong with being she & cautious. Having fun, but also staying in check at the party, or follow the police advice when you are out stay aware of your surrounds. They even advice that when you are out place your key between tour fingers for self defense. It doesn’t hurt to take self defense classes. Even with all of that you could still end up a victim but at least u have a chance at defense.

  295. on August 18, 2015 at 5:47 am | Reply Hiding The Veggies

    Someone was so kind to point out to me that “mental cases” are not violent they are victims. I want to make sure it’s clear that a mentally handicapped person is not a mental case (which is very offensive that would be the 1st thought) A mental case (in my book anyways) is a mental case. People who are violently (rape, murder, ect.) psychotic (you what I’m talking about–serial killers, serial rapists & child predators come to mind) are mental cases. That is offensive that people are labeled that way that might be mentally handicapped or have psychological issues.

    • You are continuing to say ignorant and offensive things. “Psychotic” does not mean what you think it means. And I’m still not sure what you mean by “mentally handicapped”, but I can assure you that what I am saying applies to both people with intellectual disability and people with psychiatric disabilities and illnesses.

  296. on August 19, 2015 at 12:34 am | Reply The New(ish) Wife

    I literally wrote the exact same post. And a man commented saying my post was “one-sided”. If women don’t stand up for themselves and each other, nothing will change!

  297. on August 20, 2015 at 12:13 pm | Reply Happy Clumsy Memories

    This is so well written, and so very true. It’s sad that when a woman goes out with her friends she worries that the dress she’s wearing is too revealing, or that she needs to stop drinking for fear of being too drunk. It’s also sad that we now automatically worry when a guy approaches, or when someone is simply walking behind us. The victim is not responsible for what the attacker does. The attacker, be it a ‘he’ or a ‘she’ chose to attack that person, they made the decision, they followed it through with the actions. The victim didn’t ask for it, the victim didn’t go looking for it. They probably went out with friends to have a good time, and enjoy themselves. They didn’t have a responsibility to not be raped, they had a responsibility to take care of themselves, that should never include ‘I have a responsibility tonight to not get raped’.

  298. I think this post speaks the truth and no way in hell should you remove it.

  299. decency is in a women wins a man respect. i don’t think a man will rape a woman who dresses decently without revealing sensitive parts of her, also a man will not rape a lady that is drunk or found in advantage areas for rapist. I disagree to agree, in some sense yes but in other sense no.

    • on August 28, 2015 at 4:40 am | Reply parent against injustice

      So what you’re saying is only girl’s in skirts and boob tubes get raped. You really large igronent moron.

      • No! am saying ladies should be decent, don’t get drunk or be at places convenient for rapist to get to you…you don’t expect to be among indecent guys, get drunk or show parts you are not suppose to and get rape and blame anyone!….both parties must be blamed….and thanks for your insult.

      • You’re very welcome. So the first time I was raped. I was in bed, in my first home. With pj’S ON. WELL HOW BLOODY IRRISSPONSABLE OF ME. I was 19. 2nd time I was at home with a friend. Or so I thought. My bro was asleep in bed. So I felt very safe. Only my water had been spiked. My brother, after distrbing him. Had to half drag half carry me to a bathroom. The bloke legged it. My brother was so desperate for me to not remember and save me the trama. That he went to the police. They didn’t take my clothes and only drug tested me 3 day’s later. So when my brother found him in a pub and the police still hadn’t shown there useless faces, after 20 minutes. He called again saying he was armed and in danger of hurting his sisters rapist. B4 he finished the call sevrel units arrived and arrested him. The next person to rape me was my partner of 10 years. The father of my child. My child was a product of the consentual sex . Gratefully. But how do I tell him daddy is a scumbag who abducted mummy, held her hostage for several months. He told me if I spoke about it. His freemason father would see to me. He proudly played me a recorded phone call between himself and his father. His father saying, its time we got rid of her son. The kid’s to young to remember it. I escaped him by chance. I woke on my bathroon floor. Covered in blood. My own. And what I can only hope was my own urine. The police are scared to get involved. His masonic ex cop father has probably got somethinh to do with that. He was my friend. For 3 year’s before we got together. He knew my past and I trusted him. I was up fo anything, in regards to sex so why rape me. Why so brutally for so long. Becaus I ledt him because he was violent and I had a child to protect. What a fool of me I showed have let him beat me to death. That would of protected me from rape wouldn’t it you foolish biligerant deviant opertunist. That is the impression you have given me. So I will avoid anyone with your name shold I. That may protect me from being raped. Locking my door didn’t help. Making sure I wasn’t alone didn’t help. Appropriate atire didn’t help. Being with a guy years, didn’t help. Perhaps I should try not trusting, perhaps I should even lower myself to hating all men. Or a hesian sack covered in shit. But im not sure that would matter if a dick is hell bent on eliviation of a need. I know how about I carry a plastic vagina and offer that to the next rapists. I rarely go out at night don’t have male friends round at night. I live with my dad because im now scared to live alone in case the freemason bag of shit carry s out his promise of feeding me to pig’s or some male friend breaks in and rapes me. My last rape was oct last year. Im mid 30. Iv done my best to not enhance my looks and stopped using makeup an jewellery (don’t want to entice any rapest). Dont feel comfortable in short skirts as I have great legs. To avoid teasing rapest. I were shorts only with friend. Stop gallivanting around the beach in bikini an sarongs. Abandoned sarongs altogether. Pay a fortunefor counciling. Well what a fucking iirresponsible twat, must I look to a potential rapest as you portray yourself to be. I know just to be certain should I stick up my vagina. Or just cut the dicks off men who may be like yourself. Oblivious to the plight of the risk of owning a vagina

      • Am sorry for your unfortunate situation. but don’t allow your emotion or hatred towards guys should trigger unwanted behavior patterns. I just give a humble opinion and that’s want i think. I understand how grief can change a person but you really need to calm down.

      • what the fuck? she just explained to you about being horrifically raped and abused and you tell her to calm down?
        You are offensive beyond belief.

      • This is what most people don’t understand. It’s not just young girls who dress ‘indecently’ getting pick up on the streets. It happens in all situations, whether sober or drunk, dressed appropriately or not, whether they know the person or not! Rape wouldn’t happen without rapists.

  300. on August 30, 2015 at 5:40 pm | Reply talkchatsmart

    Responsibility does not equate to blame – we all make decisions ( and before anyone bites my head off – I am a woman who has also been a victim of rape)

    • Also each situation is different and we must bear this in mind. There are many occasions where there is no responsibility to be taken. I have taken responsibility for my actions in my situation and it has actually has helped me blame myself less for what happened.