This post will blow my feminist cred entirely because my partner and I are quietly simmering in an unfinished argument about the naming rights for this baby. (You know, the baby in my uterus, the baby which already has a tight grip on my body – my energy levels, my functioning, my health, my freedoms and appearance, the baby I will be birthing).
You see, my partner is the seventh generation of the First Born Son of the First Born Son and all these first born sons share the exact same name. A type of unimaginativeness some like to call a family tradition. First Born Sons number VI (father-in-law) and VII (partner) have noticed that the fetus I’m carrying is going to be First Born Son VIII and they very much want him to be named accordingly. Much as I can acknowledge the attraction of family traditions and ancestral ties I just cannot bear this particular patriarchal one. It can go no further, with me. I have acquiesced to the tradition as far as giving the ‘First Born Son’ name as a second name, but not as a first name. To the First Born Sons and their patriarchy-supporting kin this is breaking the tradition.
I have moved as far as I can on this and we have an equal relationship, at least in theory, so I can’t imagine there will be any other outcome apart from the compromise we’ve reached. But still I am disturbed that my partner and I are not together on this decision, that he is not resolved about rejecting this patriarchal bullshit.. to be truthful, that he isn’t more feminist. It is forming a dark cloud over what should be an exciting final trimester. And frankly, I find it a little isolating. Instead of feeling like the star of the pregnancy show I feel unnervingly like an incubator.
Our discussions have stalled, not around a decision, I feel we have that, but around a sense of unity. And unity seems kind of important when you’re having a goddamn baby together! Of course we should be able to achieve unity – my arguments are strong and enlightened and his are feeble and weak because this is my blog the patriarchy is wrong.
Mine: This tradition is patriarchal, it is sexist, pure and simple.
His: Yes it is. (And yet I am powerless to resist it, such is my sense of male entitlement). I know it is a lot to ask of you.
His: This tradition is several hundred years old, I don’t want to be the one to break it.
Mine: If this tradition dates back that long then it started when women were mere property of their husbands. Back when men owned their wives and children, of course they had exclusive naming rights. That does not reflect the times and place you live in. A man who lived and died several hundred years ago does not get to name our child!
His: This is a tradition I grew up with, it’s very important to my family.
Mine: If you care so much about traditions then why aren’t you desperate for other traditions, like getting married, or having a partner who would change her surname for you, or giving your kids your surname instead of both our surnames hyphenated? I think you pick and choose your traditions to suit you. Those that inconvenience and challenge you, like getting married, you’ve discarded. Those that would be imposed on someone else, you’re comfortable with.
Him: I just think that I will regret breaking this tradition.
Me: If it means that much to you then why did you partner up with a feminist? You knew I wouldn’t be able to do this tradition with you.
Him: Because I like feminists. (And I’ve run out of meaningful arguments so I will just keep reiterating how important it is to me to follow this tradition). This tradition is important to me.
Me: This patriarchal crap classes one of our children differently to the other based entirely on their genders. We didn’t have any of these arguments when we had a baby with ovaries, now you and your family think this is a special baby that they get to name because it has testicles.
Him: I know it is unfair but this tradition means a lot to me and them.
Me: This tradition is narrow-minded, it would hang a lot of shit on this baby. What if he is gay and adopts a baby – can First Born Son IX be Korean-born and the third son of his birth parents? Is that still the family tradition? What if he wants to have a sex change one day and become a woman? What if he never wants children, does he have to feel guilty about breaking this patriarchal chain-mail bizzo? It is 2009, how much longer do you expect this tradition to last even if I wasn’t the mother of this baby?
Him: There is only this one tradition that I care about and I just would really like it if we kept it going.
Me: You’ve never even traced your family tree back to see for yourself that you are First Born Son VII, maybe the chain was broken long ago.
Me: Pregnancy, child-birth and child-rearing are bloody hard work, you know I will sacrifice much more to that than you and and yet you think it would be fine for me to not get an equal say in the naming of our child?
Him: I know, I know, it is unfair. I don’t even particularly like the name. I just want to put his name on the birth certificate, after that we need never refer to the name again, we can call him by his second name.
Me: A name you have but which you are not referred to is a second name. That is why it makes sense for this name to be his second name.
And on it goes, or hasn’t gone, since we’ve decided to drop it for the time being given how emotive it is for us. We’re not fighting, we’re not sulking, we’re not not speaking to each other, we’re getting along fine but we’re both a bit sad and disappointed. And I hate things being left undone between us.
This is one of those moments where I wonder, how as a feminist did I end up knee deep in an argument like this, how can my feminist-leaning partner be sticking to this patriarchal nonsense, haven’t I come further than this? I fail at feminism.
coz we’re all human. xxx
You’re right, he’s wrong, it’s as simple as that. 😉
It’s a beautiful argument and possibly very confronting for him – he may never have associated this tradition so strongly with patriarchy.
If only you’d named your daughter after yourself… ugh!!
Oh boy… I don’t envy you this one. How do you get along with your Father In Law???
Oh, I happen to agree with you too. I am also dying to know what ‘the name’ is but I guess that would be giving away too much wouldn’t it? Is it a particularly dated or awful name (just out of interest)? Of course it doesn’t matter if you like the name or not, the principle is what is at stake…
Oh god, how horrible for you.
I’m afraid, in a not dissimilar situation, I gave in and gave my baby his father’s surname and compromised with my surname as the middle name. I felt I’d failed at feminism. I’d wanted him to either have my name, or be double-barrelled. (We are married, but I kept my own surname.)
I couldn’t bear the sulking, the endless “but it’s TRADITION”, the stupidity of it all… and gave in.
I wouldn’t have even minded *quite* so much, but husband doesn’t even *like* his Dad that much, whose surname it was originally.
I hope you are able to stand up for yourself.
I’m sorry you are going through this. I also think you are right all the way.
Have you tried the “psychological” argument? I once heard a psychotherapist explaining the damage done to children who are named after their fathers/grand-fathers since they will always be compared and compare themselves to the man who they were named after. Not to mention that the will always feel as sort of “appendix” to that man, not as full individuals themselves. (I think this is how the idea went)
Just my twopence 😉
How grim that you are going through this, but I ADMIRE you for sticking to your guns. You do NOT fail at feminism, you are a shining star, one to whom I gaze with admiration. I failed at the starting lines, by getting married and taking my husband’s name, with only the mildest of objections. You are staking your line in the sand and sticking with it. Well done!
Hold on! Stick to your guns! He will understand in the end, but it is sad that this is even an argument in the first place. Your son needs to be an individual, not another in a long line of whatevers.
Just for another POV, please don’t put the Special Name on the birth certificate and call him by the middle name. My best friend of many years was graced with the first name “Florence” after her wealthy great-grandmother, but was always known by her middle name. She has had vast bureaucratic difficulties over the years, including missing a family trip overseas because the passport office approved the passports of her parents and siblings, but not hers – she needed more documentation, twice, but had no more time. She’s had problems with everything from job interviews (her various certificates didn’t match the name on the application) to her Medicare card.
You certainly haven’t failed at feminism! Failing at feminism in this situation would be the default option – silence. When it comes to naming rights the patriarchy has a firm hold. My daughter has my surname, not my husband’s, and we’ve drawn some interesting comments – often from women, sadly.
Good luck with finding a resolution you can all live with.
What a nightmare. Naming them was the hardest part of bringing all our kids into the world (as evidenced by the fact that we got one wrong!). To speak in defence of dad, family traditions can be very hard to asses with external values. There are some traditions in my family that I wouldn’t like to hold up to the harsh light of modern reality.
Actually, it doesn’t need to be family traditions. I can’t say I have done much a job of reducing our dependency on fossil fuels, despite my beliefs.
I know whenever I envisaged having kids before I had them, they were girls. I had no choice over what I got, but if I had a choice, and hubby had equally always assumed he would have a boy, what would I have done? This seems a little similar. He may have always assumed he would name a son THAT. And you always assumed you would have real control over your child’s name. Good work Ariane, you have restated the problem.
I agree, I think you have come to the best compromise, but I sympathise with you both. There isn’t some variation on the theme that is acceptable? (We did this with Elissa – not Elizabeth (as requested by his dead mother), but derived from it) Yes, optimistic, I know. But I am going with optimism this year.
I don’t blame you, really. I mean, the 8th? Are you serious?
Now my baby brother is the fourth, but does go by his middle name. Never had any beaurocratic troubles, but we’re in the States, might be different.
But the 8th… that’s slightly extreme. I wouldn’t do it either.
The best aspect of this post was seeing your impeccable logic summarised so beautifully and knowing that you would have made the same points in conversation as perfectly as stated here because you’re one of the most gloriously concise and amazing people I know, and you’re way overdue to become a politician/similar already.
Anyway, that’s not the point, the point is that this is an illogical and emotional argument and whatever points you make they’re not going to change anything – because D. is also logical, knows the whole debate is nonsensical, is someone who is far more likely to fight for causes that are important to others (i.e. his family and all those dead ancestors he probably has visiting him in his sleep at the moment) than for his own causes, is someone who would probably trade pretty much every personal freedom right now for the baby to take on that name, knows it’s a ludicrous situation that this only applicable to XY chromosomes and the XX offspring don’t even rate such a discussion, is someone who adores strong women and wouldn’t have you any other way – and yet, despite all this, rationalising all this, will consider himself a failure and resent any decision that doesn’t end up with the first name on the birth certificate being the unimaginative D… and this issue will fester forever and take expression in all manner of odd resentments with your new baby being an ever-present reminder of how he ‘lost’ and so failed his ancestors… the worst thing is that he’d even be able to laugh at how silly it all was while still feeling the same way.
You’re never going to be any kind of failure, let alone a feminist failure, and this is not a rational discussion, I mean, how long would this ‘tradition’ have lasted if the name weren’t actually an OK one rather than Algonquin/Horatio… can you fight a duel for it (he’d have to be similarly handicapped given, you know, you’re carrying the frackin’ baby) so that at least he can say he defended the family honour, isn’t that what duels are for?
So, in summary, there’s my excellent contribution to this discussion, A. darling, you must fight a duel to resolve this.
Have I mentioned to you how thrilled I am for you?! I don’t think I have, given I’ve been hibernating in London and being useless as usual – though this time am actually working on something that will hopefully be of interest to Lauca if it’s published with her included in the dedication… must talk to you when it’s not 2am your time,
Nic
You would only be failing at feminism if you were responsible for your partner’s viewpoints. You are not…none of us are. He has his growth and you have yours. It is unfortunate you have this impasse, especially when you are about to bring a new member into the family, but it is a growth moment…for him and for your family.
He must go to therapy. This is an excellent opportunity for him to work through some family issues. He knows he feels this way, but does he know WHY he feels this way?
I really feel for men sometimes. It often seems like they have developed no language to talk about their feelings and their true selves — they have only their little traditions to represent self and love. My husband summarizes masculinity as the following: physical strength, physical and emotional toughness, and selfishness. Also, the constant fear of being thought to be gay. It makes me sad that so many people think this is something that they should be. Following this recipe is exactly the way to be cut off from yourself.
He must know that you may regret it far more if you go along with the request. I “tried on” my husband’s last name by tacking it onto mine after a similar argument that lasted a year. I said it was a trial basis. It sounds terrible and I’ve never gotten used to it but it will be so much of a pain in the ass to drop it that I haven’t done so yet, 4 years after marriage. I feel for the pickle you’re in and don’t think it will disrespectful to simply tell him “no” and leave it at that. Make him a deal, in all seriousness, that when he gestates a baby he can choose its name.
He is delusional to thing that it is he who would break this tradition. He cannot break it or make it, because he doesn’t have that power or ability to do it on first place. He has to rely on your generosity.
Our house made the same painful compromise. It almost split us up. I have total sympathy for you.
Yikes. That is hard. We have four daughters, and I was dreading having a boy for this very reason. Husband is a second, named after his great grandpa who came here from Europe. I did not think it was fair for our child to inherit the baggage and responsibility of being the III. Luckily, we never had to make that decision. I probably would have given in, to be honest.
Sigh. I think this comes down to privilege. We all (who are able to participate in this conversation) have it. And there are little things that are the trappings of our privilege, and we hate-hate-hate to give them up. Even when we think we’re enlightened, even when they don’t benefit us other than to support our privilege, we come up with rationalizations why this one thing is actually fine, and justified and very, very important to People Who Must Not Be Disappointed.
As much as he likes strong women/feminists/you, I suspect that your feminism hasn’t required him to give up much privilege just yet. As you say, it has primarily allowed him to discard traditions that would inconvenience him.
I would point out to him that looking miserable and saying, ‘I know it’s not fair, but-‘ doesn’t mitigate that he is asking you to capitulate to a system that supports his male privilege. Call him on the fact that there is a benefit to him in this, that even if he says he doesn’t like the name or care that much or that it’s just about tradition, it is actually about him not wanting to give up privilege. Then I would advise patience, because coming to terms with the fact that your idealism doesn’t extend to giving up your own privilege is hard, and isn’t made more beautiful or possible by being pushed.
Argh boys suck sometimes and I’m not talking about the one in utreuo.
Argh. Just wanted to reiterate that you cannot be a failure due to your partner’s attitude. You have behaved admirably.
Mannnn what a discussion. Go you. The argument about actually being inconvenienced by things he gives up is a good one. I can’t believe SEVEN lots of families actually continued this in an unbroken chain. I reckon this warrants further research on his behalf.
I look forward with trepidation to the naming thing when I have kids. I would so love for my kids to have my last name, but I suspect, like for most people, it would cause a hell of an argument. With the entire extended family. Even my dad and my brother would probably think I was crazy. I reckon my mum would support me though. (29 years married this March, and she still says we have to put her maiden name on her memorial stone, because she wishes she hadn’t changed it.)
And for me, I just can’t hyphenate my last name with my partner’s… Mine is Italian and complicated, his is Irish, neither are short. My name just sounds bad with anyone’s actually.
Oh, you are so damn smart. All of your arguments are right on.
Fortunately, my far less feminist husband thinks the family lineage naming thing is silly too, so I didn’t have to deal with this for either son.
Hmmm. Maybe you could throw in the idea that you want your son to be UNIQUE, and that a different name reflects uniqueness–he will not be a little carbon copy of all these former men, so his name should be different.
I can’t tell you how helpful I’ve found these comments. Thank you soooooooooooo much everyone.
When my partner and discussed names for the kid we agreed on a boy name straight away. We are both second children without any family naming traditions so we rattled off Irish republican heroes til we found one we both liked whose name is not currently in use (my brother and his both have the same first names as two of the other big heroes). Then we spent the next six months arguing about girls. I’d always thought I’d have a daughter. I never thought I’d have a male partner, I assumed my daughter would have the name of an historic figure I particularly like, and my surname. The Bloke said “I’ve always hated that name. It conjures bratty blonde private school girls.” Even if you leave all the patriarchal tradition out of it, when one person has always had a firm idea of what they’d call their kid, and the other has a firm view against it, it’s hard. We reached a compromise name that I was never really happy with, and I’m very glad we had a boy.
Good luck.
Consdidering how both of you will have to say the name (whatever is it) over and over and over and over for at least the next 18 or so years, probably every day, well, whatever you two work out it had better be a name you both like.. Good luck with that! (I do find the idea of annoying and shocking the in-laws, or older relatives, by breaking tradition very appealing and amusing…)
Coming in a little late, but my Father-In-Law – who is a III – actually begged us not to name our son after his dad. He HATED having the same name as his father and grandfather.
My grandmother, on the other hand, could not understand why we weren’t naming him after my husband.
Honestly, I always just thought that everyone deserves to have their own name and not be what essentially boils down to a copy of someone else.
I don’t have anything I can add here that would help you, but I wanted to ditto all the comments. You do not fail at feminism.
Thanks for posting about this, it was a good read, and it raises some interesting things for any feminist to discuss with their partner. I’ve always taken it for granted I’d be in step with mine about this sort of stuff, but I bet we’re not.
Good luck with dealing with this. You do not fail. (it can’t be said enough!)
I certainly don’t envy you this conversation. For one thing: as many of the other commenters said, you don’t fail at feminism. Failing would be not having the conversation, or caving in because you don’t want to seem demanding.
The tone of the article suggests that you are looking for some kind of explanation of your apparent “failure” here though, so I’ll try to go a bit further than that.
(Disclosure: I’m a man. I don’t apply the label “feminist” to myself, nor does my partner apply it to herself. But, I am generally sympathetic to the cause, and by many standards our lifestyle is radically feminist. We also don’t have children or have any plans to have any. I hope I have convinced you that I am _completely_ unqualified to comment on your predicament, so you won’t take what I say too seriously.)
To the extent that anyone has “failed” here, it seems that your partner has failed to examine his motivations for asking for this name. In your sample conversation, he has provided no explanation beyond “this is important to me”, it struck me as a bit odd in the discussion that you posted that you didn’t try to dig deeper and discover *why* it was important to him. You assert that it’s patriarchal, and that’s true. The implied subtext is that it is therefore important to *you* to break the tradition for the sake of breaking it, as a demonstration that the implicit modes of thought which allowed such a tradition to propagate are now dying out.
One hopes that your partner’s reaction is not a simple counterpoint to that. I presume that he doesn’t want — or at least, that he doesn’t *think* he wants — to demonstrate the continued viability of patriarchal reasoning.
To say that it’s a tradition that he “grew up with” also sounds strange to me. Chinese New Year is a tradition grows up with. Purim is a tradition one grows up with. Having a name is… well, it’s just a name, it’s not something you “grew up” with, unless there’s some significance to it that was regularly highlighted in the process of growing up.
So if you want to restore some of the lost harmony, I think it would be good for him (and for you) to understand what he wants out of continuing this tradition. Obviously he doesn’t care about tradition for tradition’s sake, so this tradition has some special quality. Is it a sacrificial offering to improve his relationship with his family? Does he think it will have some benefits for the child growing up? Does he feel that being the “VII” had some benefits for him?
Is it really just an unintentional passive-aggressive attempt to change the power dynamic of your relationship? Introspecting on the benefits he hopes to gain by continuing the tradition might help him to realize that, and somehow deal with it, if it’s true. I have read enough pop psychology to know that women become the center of attention when they are pregnant, and sometimes this can make men feel marginalized and thereby make us act in strange ways.
Another way to put this would be: if he can clearly identify what benefits he expects from continuing this tradition, perhaps you could identify some other way that he could get those benefits. Some way which didn’t reek of the patriarchy :).
As you say, it’s unlikely that understanding this would affect your decision, but I think it would be useful to at least really understand the basis of the disagreement. And frankly, I’m quite curious myself what would drive an otherwise enlightened man to stick to such a strange demand that was obviously offensive to his partner.
You haven’t said that you loathe the name itself, just the patriarchal connotations of it. To you it represents a long lineage of mothers who had no say in the names their babies were given. You’ve reached what you consider a compromise, but from the tone of your post you are unhappy with the way things sit between you and your partner.
Consider this thought experiment. You sit like this for months, and things become less tense between you. He becomes reconciled to your choice. Then out of the blue, you say to your partner: “Guess what. I’ve decided to name the baby whatever VII, just because I know it is important to you, and I love you.”
How do you think he would react? I’m guessing from your post that he would greet this with happiness and joy. How would you feel at that moment, and why?
To me, it seems that a name is not patriarchal if you choose it.
[…] 17, 2009 by blue milk This name bizzo, the patriarchy was defeated, my partner is reconciled to it (cookie for him), his family not so […]
[…] Me versus the patriarchy – “You see, my partner is the seventh generation of the First Born Son of the First Born Son and all these first born sons share the exact same name. A type of unimaginativeness some like to call a family tradition. First Born Sons number VI (father-in-law) and VII (partner) have noticed that the fetus I’m carrying is going to be First Born Son VIII and they very much want him to be named accordingly. Much as I can acknowledge the attraction of family traditions and ancestral ties I just cannot bear this particular patriarchal one. It can go no further, with me. I have acquiesced to the tradition as far as giving the ‘First Born Son’ name as a second name, but not as a first name. To the First Born Sons and their patriarchy-supporting kin this is breaking the tradition.” […]
[…] same name – and my partner is a first-born son.. and so is this little baby boy of ours. Yes, it is a very patriarchal tradition; and yes, I dislike it accordingly; and yes, he is supposed …. In the end, after quite a bit of arguing (and even more of that tension that happens when you […]
[…] Firstly, because I can’t imagine anything worse than giving a child of mine a name that could only have been popular in the 50′s, and probably wasn’t even popular then. Secondly, because I could imagine his reaction if I suggested we named our first daughter, if we have one, after my mother. Thirdly, because – well, you should probably just read this post. […]
[…] Me versus the patriarchy […]
I have emailed this to my husband who is WGB III and who has told me his own story about this. Ironically it wasn’t he, who insisted on creating a IV. I’ll leave the rest for him to tell.
I never wanted children, and he has enough of them. We’ve discussed the hypothetical, just to see where we stand, and we are both in agreement. Creating a dynasty would not be for us!
If men want a higher stake in naming children, they need to learn how to get pregnant, and do all the MAJOR stuff. It makes me sick when a man talks to a woman about sacrifice in this area.
I married a much older man for many reasons, one of which is not having to deal with in-law drama!!!
I went through something similar, and I’m the dynastic male! I happen to be the third in my particular line. When my first born was expected, we decided on names that did not carry out the nonsense. Unfortunately, when my firstborn was born, I was on a ship bound for Vietnam and wasn’t there to fill out the correct paperwork. My wife created a fourth in my line, for which I am still ticked off.
For those of you women who would have prerferred retaining your maiden name, MOVE TO QUEBEC! It’s provincial law that a woman retains her own name after marriage.
Wonderful to see you here. This made me think of you, as I read it.