The other day I got caught up in this discussion with a man about rape and responsibility and it was very much like this and this so I won’t go into the specifics of our tedious conversation but I will say something about where we left off, which was around the time when he asked me what was my great feminist solution to the apparent greyness of some rapes. The rape that happens after hours and hours of flirting and innuendo; the rape that happens after foreplay; the rape that happens between committed sexual partners; the rape that happens half-way through sex; the rape that happens when the guy supposedly thought she was into it. You know, I replied, you can ask for consent first. But asking for consent, he said, is just such a mood-killer.
Apart from the fact that doing anything without consent is both illegal and immoral and this man surely doesn’t want to be doing either – and how can you argue against a tiny bit of clarification when it has the potential to stop a world of pain – consent is actually the sexy part. Without consent it isn’t even sex; it is a flat-out violation. This man assures me that he isn’t trying to rape anyone, what he is saying is that he just wants to be having hot sex and he wants to be a hot partner so he doesn’t want to kill the excitement by stopping and asking her to sign a consent form.
I don’t know why the idea has persisted that asking for consent is necessarily a clinical business – what is stilted about – more? do you want to? do you like? Because “mood-killer”? Are you kidding me? That moment when they close the space between you both and ask you to put your cards on the table – is this on or not, can I do this with you – is one of the most heart-flippingly exciting moments in all of existence. Eat those moments up because they are the episodes of your life that you will daydream about when you’re ninety years old. That anticipation – that moment when your asking is simultaneously both aggressive and submissive – it is what fuels a billion films and books. Granted it is not pleasant when you’re turned down, and for the record, it isn’t easy turning someone down either. Something is usually lost; the end of a good conversation at the very least, and sometimes even a friendship. But it is a gamble you take because you can’t bear another moment of not knowing; it is the gamble you take because when someone says ‘yes’ to you it is about the hottest feeling you’ll ever know.
You are so right about this. It is precisely the memory of those moments that I return to in long periods of drought. So well written about here. Definitely “heart-flipping”.
On the subject, blue milk, have you seen this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/sep/10/rape-jokes-in-comedy
I think sex ed should be changed to relationship ed. No point in teaching contraception if the communication skills aren t there.
Oh and was not dirty talk invented for this purpose?
Ha, that’s funny Stef, I just tweeted a link to this post and suggested it makes its way onto the national curriculum for sex ed.
You say the other person was wrong but then you make the same sort of weak inductive argument.
I’m amazed more guys haven’t worked this out. If they knew how sexy it was they’d be asking all the time!
The possible consequence of asking for enthusiastic consent killing the mood should pale in comparison to the consequences of not asking.
Plus you have a lot of ladies saying flat out that it doesn’t kill the mood for them… that they find it hot… if it does kill the mood with someone you continue to want to have sex with talk to them about it and find a solution that works for both of you.
It is so simple if you look at it like this.
If J and I didn’t ask for each other’s consent every time it mattered, we wouldn’t still have a loving relationship a heartbeat later.
And because of that, part of the fun is the anticipation that happens before one of us asks the other if we can do X. “Moodkiller” my arse.
It’s not that simple if the person seeking the consent (or not, more to the point) actually isn’t interested in the experience of their partner. Which is the underlying message I’m hearing from bluemilk’s conversation. The message is that it ruins the mood for HIM and that’s all that matters to him, which is perhaps why he is confused about the signals he is receiving in the first place. And I say confused generously, because what I am thinking is ‘ignoring’.
In my experience, the kind of men who would care about a woman finding the asking process sexy and who would also find that sexy are generally not at risk of mistaking consent anyway, because they actually give a shit about the experience of their sexual partner. The kind who pretend that they care about consent, but claim they don’t understand are being a bit disingenuous, to my mind. I’m sure that’s a generalisation that wouldn’t stand up to scrutiny for the general population, but it has certainly been my experience.
Pen – so true.
But there also seems to be this group of men out there who are generally considerate, respectful partners but who for some reason also feel this need to stick up for the men out there who aren’t and who are being accused of sexual assualt. And I really think to a large degree that this is where my debate with this particular guy was at – and he tried to say that ‘nice guys’ can get caught out in the so-called ‘grey rape’ situation. No matter how murky he tried to make the situation and signals out to be he couldn’t get past the simple solution I offered of asking for consent.
Not sure how your partner is feeling because she seems to have gone awfully quiet and still during intercourse – you could ask.. not sure if because she is into oral sex with you that she will also want to have intercourse with you – you could ask.
I hate those conversations. It’s a big derail, the “grey rape” where the dude is the victim. Especially because every single time I’ve been in this conversation it’s always a hypothetical twisted and mirky case the fellow makes up. Why do they feel they can put enthusiastic consent on trial? I think it is very threatening to many men. I guess for those many men they’d rather stay scared and confused and angry then work actively to reduce rape.
Portly Dyke put it the best I’ve ever seen in one of her blog entries (I wish I’d saved the link). She said that asking for explicit consent is the furthest thing from a mood-killer: having someone say “Yes, yes! Oh, YES!” for a couple of hours was her idea of a really good time.
I think if you’re in your own little world and only thinking about your own experience, it can be. And I’m not saying that is only a guy thing – I’ve had plenty fo selfish sex. But if you are attempting to connect and share an intimate experience… MAN it can be the most erotic thing ever. To ask ‘can I touch you here?’ or ‘is it ok if I BLANK’.
Phoar!
Even if her response is ‘yes, get on with it I need to get dinner on, or the kids will wake up in a minute’ at least you know that she wants to participate i.e. you aren’t raping.
I really liked this post (proof: I tweeted it!). Lordy, it’s such a shame that so many people grow up thinking that sex is all about dudes and their penises. I agree with Pen about the disingenuous thing – certainly in many of my conversations with straight men over the years (including brothers, friends and students) I’ve felt that a lot think they care about consent in sex with women, but have great difficulty following that through because it means re-conceptualising sex as more than, well, dudes and their penises….
Oh goodness I have such a massive crush on you, Blue Milk! Quick guys, here’s another tip, reading this blog makes you sexy too!
Aww!
Great post. I agree with that a guy asking (as long as it’s done with a certain grace) can be a great heart-skips-a-beat fluttery moment.
But it doesn’t actually address the point about ‘the rape that happens half-way through sex’. I think I might get tired of him asking if it’s ok to continue between thrusts.
@faithh I think the fact that guys aren’t asking all the time is probably a good thing. This move is best in moderation.
I love the image of asking if it is still ok between each thrust – too funny.
Not sure if this was a serious question about ‘the rape that happens half-way through sex’ but if it is I explained what I meant a little better up above in my reply to Pen.
Yeah it is serious. The problem for me I think is that on the question of the withdrawal of consent halfway through (I mean going quiet and still, as you say above, not him continuing when you say stop, that’s no question), you come closest to the sometimes narrow line between simply bad sex and something more violating. And everyone has bad sex occasionally, including genuinely nice guys.
Wonderfully written! And I’ll agree with what others have said: mood-killer my ass. (unless as others have said, it’s only about YOU and YOUR mood because you simply don’t care about your partner[s]).
“…when someone says ‘yes’ to you it is about the hottest feeling you’ll ever know.”
True.
Sounds like a good response to confused men who “just don’t want to kill the mood by stopping to get her to sign a consent form” is to put on your own confused face and say “but it’s sexy when I get asked “is this hot?” I didn’t say anything about consent forms.”
Or just “mmm, consent forms” or “mmm, knowing my partner won’t rape me” 😛
This is a great post Blue Milk and I heartily agree about the hotness of communication, consent and that knowledge that you are wanted. Learning these sorts of communication skills is important as is teaching them when we have the opportunity. I spent nearly two years of the early nineties trying to teach safe sex negotiation to ‘at risk’ young men and women. A rather frustrating experience as you can imagine as their sexual practice was driven as much by the factors that made them ‘at risk’ as it was by their own desires. I guess that it is no surprise that we got that mood killer argument a lot, from both sexes. Your post demonstrates that we still have a long way to go.
Thanks again.
For what it’s worth, at my university the mandatory anti-rape ed program that all incoming freshmen have to attend is called “Consent is Sexy.”
Kathryn, that is worth a lot. I love that your Uni has a mandatory anti-rape ed program. I don’t like that it needs to have one, but I wish all unis did.
[…] pretty much in love with this post over at Blue Milk disputing the idea that asking for consent is a total mood-killer. What […]
This is a fab post! Also have you seen this? http://www.scarleteen.com/resource/boyfriend/consent_is_sexy
[…] Milk explains that asking is sexy and that without consent it isn’t sex and the comments are great too. I don’t know why the […]
I was just linked to this post, and to begin with, I actually quite disagreed – mostly thinking ‘I don’t want my boyfriend asking permission every time we have sex! This is going to get silly’
Then I remembered our first time, which last about 4 hours, with both of us asking multiple times if the other minded if we went further, if we could take an item of clothing off, and it was terrifying waiting for the response. It was really wonderful.
I’ll admit, now, I don’t want my boyfriend to ask me, sometimes at all. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t know I’ve consented, we have a safeword and it’s agreed I can use it for anything (even tickle fights!). I think all partners should have one really, you don’t have to be worried about ‘mood-killer’ (because trying to come up with a sexy way of asking just doesn’t work for every couple), but you can be sure they want it as much as you do.
[…] with arousal’ (a la the heat in our crotches, as described in that comment) you could ask (it can even be quite a hot experience to ask). Yes, it is possible for someone to change their mind, be overwhelmed with lust for you, but you […]
Though I’ve been happily married for nearly 15 years, I learned something from reading this. Thanks.
One reason it’s persisted, is that sometimes you’re told this, bluntly, to your face, in clear words, by women.
I’ve been told around half a dozen times, by atleast 4 different females, 2 of them complaining about me asking, and 2 of them complaining about other males.
Along the lines of: “You know what he did ? He *asked* me if he could kiss me ! What a total looser, he should man up and just do it, if I don’t like it, I’ll say so.”
I’m thus forced to conclude that asking *is* a turnoff to atleast some women. Offcourse it may at the same time be true that asking is sexy to other women, it’s not as if you’re all alike or anything.
Eivind, I have three thoughts reading your comment.
Firstly, you don’t need to ask if someone is up for this thing if they’re giving you lots of ‘enthusiastic consent’ gestures back.. this is for when you are in a situation and you can’t tell if she is into this/you or not or you are about to initiate something brand new (ie. new move or with a new person). There is no need to stop and check every couple of seconds, you can look for some signs of enthusiastic consent back from them and go with that.
And secondly, you can ask in a sexy way, it doesn’t have to be stilted. Personally, the times a guy has asked if he can kiss me for the first time make my heart beat a little faster just to think about. They weren’t being directionless or timid or awkward, they were being pretty assertive and it was sexy.
Finally, I think some women have a hard time owning their sexual desire after literally hundreds of years of our gender being told to be demure and coy about these things and so it can feel difficult for those women to be put in any kind of ‘driver’s seat’ with sex where they have to say out loud that ‘yes, I want you’. But as I said before, asking for consent can still be done in an assertive, seductive way.. there is no reason that the mood has to be killed dead with a little clarification. If a woman is at a stage where she can tell you that she doesn’t like you asking first before you kiss her then you’re probably at a stage of honesty where you can both map out more of the boundaries of everything, including pushing her against a wall and going for it.
People norlmaly pay me for this and you are giving it away!
[…] Asking is sexy […]
[…] of my posts, originally part of a series (here, here, here, here and here), was republished at Women’s Agenda in […]