Candy, who just left a comment on my post, “But why shouldn’t she take some responsibility, too, for the rape?” – this is being re-posted just for you, and all the other people standing with you on your slippery slope of blame.
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To “A woman who agrees with the man”:
OK sure, believe that some women need to take responsibility for preventing their own rapes if you want to but keep four things in mind.
One.
You know the majority of rape isn’t actually your classic ‘stranger rape’ deal, right, so I’d ask you – the four-year old boy raped by his grandfather, should he take more responsibility for preventing that? How about the fifteen year old girl raped by her mother’s boyfriend? What about the 21-year-old man raped in prison? How about the 45-year-old woman with physical disabilities raped by her carer? And the 70-year-old woman beaten and raped by her husband?
Or are you saying that there are only certain kinds of rape that victims should take responsibility for preventing? (And if you think that there are some more and some less ‘innocent’ victims of rape, then do you know for sure that your message of responsibility is reaching the right kinds of victims and not hurting the wrong ones?)
Two.
When I was in first-year university I went away for the weekend as the only girl with four boys to a beach-house on a little island. We were all friends, though in truth it was pretty clear to me that these four were each a little interested in me. And it was probably obvious to them, too, that I was attracted to some of them. We spent the weekend drinking, laughing, swimming and listening to music together.. oh, and flirting. I remember even flashing my breasts a couple of times when they were taking photos of the sea and one of them trying to catch it on his camera. But I didn’t want to have sex with any of them that weekend. I really hadn’t worked out what I wanted and whether I wanted to pursue anything. And then, you know what happened? Nothing. I didn’t get raped. None of them raped me. And those boys weren’t heroic for not raping me; they weren’t ‘good’ for not raping me; not raping someone is the default position, actually. It should be what we expect from boys and men.
But I bet you think I made bad decisions? You think I took terrible risks? You think I was asking for trouble? That I didn’t take sufficient “precautions”? And you know, I just thought I was having fun and that I could, of course, trust my friends. I thought I was safe. And in truth, there isn’t anything actually wrong with a girl thinking she can trust a male friend. There isn’t even anything wrong with an 18-year-old girl joyfully exposing her breasts. Neither of these things cause rape.
Three.
Everyone takes risks, even you. Almost everything has some risk attached to it and taking risks doesn’t make you a terrible person. Sometimes people take risks, or make decisions you think you wouldn’t take/make. Sadly, as a result of the rape culture we live in we often tend to think this when we read about a rape allegation in a newspaper article. It all seems so obvious to us by then. Why did she get so drunk she passed out? Why did she go home with him? Why didn’t she struggle more? You need to ask yourself where these thoughts – which are very much directed at her and not him, the rapist – are actually coming from.
For instance, the four-year old boy I mentioned in the example above. After experiencing childhood sexual abuse perpetrated by someone who is supposed to love him, well, that boy might not be so great at determining which people are to be trusted and which aren’t as he grows up. So when at 14 he hangs around with a couple of paedophiles who he likes because they seem to like him, is he more responsible for it this time when they rape him or not? Should he have been able to see, as clearly as you think you can see, that these men are bad news? What if the next time it happens he is smashed on drugs, is he more responsible for it this time? Did he not take enough precautions?
And the fifteen year old mentioned above, when she is an adult woman and another man tries to rape her and she just freezes up, cries and waits for it all to be over. She might not assert herself as much as you think she should in that situation, she might not struggle enough for you or shout enough, is she more responsible for the rape this time?
And the sense of independence and adventure that led me to go on a weekend away with four male friends, should that have been squashed out of me? Even though these same traits have since helped me in my career, made me a good mother, and are probably some of the things that my partner has been most attracted to in me?
Was I more or less stupid than the girl who passes out drunk? More or less cavalier than her? More or less naive? More or less self-harming? More or less slutty? Could I tweak the circumstances a fraction in her favour, or a fraction in mine for you; what would tip you over the balance so that you side with her or me or both of us in our defence? Would the next person agree with you or would they side (blame) differently? Can you see how arbitrary this all is when we decide some victims are responsible for their rape?
Four.
Now ask yourself, what precautions do you take to prevent rape when you go out? List them all – from what you decide to wear to which bar you choose to go to for drinks with your friends. And actually, choose another woman friend or relative and ask her what precautions she takes – what decisions does she make about public transport, about what time of day she goes outside to exercise, about where she parks her car at the shopping centre, about making eye contact with strangers? You’ll find there is, literally, a list a mile long and I guarantee you that you’ll find all women, not just you, already take a lot of precautions to prevent rape. Taking more responsibility isn’t the magic answer to rape. Putting responsibility back where it belongs – on the person who rapes – is the only way to truly tackle rape culture.
So no, being a self-declared feminist won’t cut you any slack on these comment threads, as long as you are still arguing that victims of rape aren’t taking sufficient precautions you are coming from a place filled with victim-blaming and rape apologists, and excuse the rest of us feminists, but we won’t be backing down from telling you exactly that.
(After this post, ‘Don’t get raped’, there was this post, ‘But why shouldn’t she take some responsibility, too, for the rape?’, and after that post there was this post, ‘All the way – gray rape and third base’. Now I write this post here and I hope this is the end of it).
It seems to me once you accept that women should be responsible for not taking risks/being provocative/inciting men with their clothing, you have accepted that women should wear burkas/robes/other cover-everything garb. Because once you accept that dressing ‘provocatively’ or ‘immodestly’ is ‘wrong’, you are saying that you should dress as conservatively as you can. Where do you draw that mythical line? If the burka is too restrictive, why is a long dress and short-sleeved top? Or pants? Or shorts? What percentage of skin showing means you want to be raped or didn’t take enough precautions? Because clearly, if hiding yourself a little is a ‘reasonable precaution’ then hiding yourself a lot should be EVEN SAFER.
Also, at what point do you feel that just leaving the house at all is asking for rape? Isn’t it a reasonable precaution to not put yourself in that position in the first place by having a proper, protecting husband (he’d never rape you, of course, but if you don’t put out you are curtailing his manhood and being unthankful for his protection) and to stay in the safe places?
IMHO the problem with saying that women bear responsibility to ‘prevent their own rapes’ is that any point less than full-time, full-body protection is just an arbitrary line. there is no magic point at which you stop being ‘cautious’ and start being ‘provocative’. Either men can’t control themselves and thus women shouldn’t trust them to be near them at all, or men can control themselves in which case it’s not the woman’s job to make sure they do. You can’t have it both ways.
you know, i hate when the burqa is brought up in discussions of rape. because guess what, there are a number of burqa-wearing women who wear it for reasons that have nothing to do with not being raped. and they will tell you quite clearly that wearing a burqa has not stopped them from suffering from sexual violence.
now perhaps these women are not important to you, and fair enough. but i think you should be aware that perpetuating these kinds of stereotypes – which are practically equivalent to the reasoning of certain types of muslim males – really doesn’t make the life of burqa-wearing women any easier. if you know that but want to continue with this type of argument, it’s up to you. but i just want to make clear that it is possible to actually argue against slut-shaming without burqa-shaming at the same time.
To me it seems that any extreem of modesty would increase the risk? Too little modesty and you send out a signal that something is on offer, too little and you seem to increase the risk of being targeting by triggering some kind of resentment in potential aggressors, or just by standing out from the crowd. I really wish this was something we were allowed to actually study, it may help potential victims protect themselves and help us educate potential aggressors who may be getting their wires crossed. But we just don’t know, any discussion of whether clothing contributes to risk just get responded to with the concept that clothing can never be blamed.
I hear ya, stargazer. Every time someone says ‘well we should all wear burqas then’ I want to shout ‘noooooo men rape women wearing burqas too, can we please give up this ridiculous idea that covered-up clothes will protect women?’.
I mean burqa in the sense of a garment that covers as much female flesh as can be. I know lots of people who wear burqas or things like it for many reasons, and have no problem with that. And I certainly do not think it reduces rape; quite the opposite, as was my point, that you cannot draw a line of covering or modesty that magically is either ‘safe enough’ or ‘too risky’.
Clothing is not risky. Female flesh is not risky. Raping people is risky and people should stop doing it, and we should stop trying to tell people that wearing ‘proper’ things is somehow empowering them not to be raped. It isn’t, it is just a reverse psychology way of saying that people deserve their rapes, and for people who haven’t been raped to hold over those who have by saying ‘if only you were like me, you wouldn’t have brought that on yourself’.
I don’t think that is what people consciously think, but it is what it boils down to. By saying ‘you can lower your risk by doing X’, you are also saying ‘You raise your risk by not doing X’ and, thus, ‘If you do X, don’t be surprised when you are raped. Look, I don’t do X, and I haven’t been raped!’
Telling women not to dress provocatively, or drink, or be alone with men, is puttig the responsibility on the wrong party. The responsibility is on men /not to rape/. Period.
I think you misunderstood what Jamie meant – she was just showing how ridiculous the suggestion is. Because of course women who wear burkas get raped!
Also, if men can’t be trusted not to be driven insane by the sight of a woman’s flesh, why is it women who have to hide? Shouldn’t we sequester and tie up the men, like we would any viscous uncontrollable beast?
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
Reacting to every reasonable suggestion with “don’t blame the victim” confuses these separate issue: reasonable precautions and diminished blame for the aggressor. Confusing these two separate issues does far more harm than good.
If a woman doesn’t take these precautions she is not to blame for her rape, she took a risk which at the time she thought was worth the benefit. Maybe she took a big risk and can choose to be more cautious in future, or maybe she took a small risk and was very unlucky, but only the aggressor did something morally wrong.
Suggesting that women take reasonable precautions which also have other health and safety benefits does not in any way excuse the aggressor when women choose not to take these precautions.
I honestly can’t think of anything i do solely to prevent rape. The actions i do take to avoid rape are all things which also reduce other risks.
I avoid walking alone in some unfamiliar streets, or neighbourhoods i think are unsafe, at certain times of day. But that’s also to prevent non-sexual violent assault by people who want to steel my property or by people who are just drunk and looking for a fight.
I dress modestly, but that’s mainly to avoid annoying but non-aggressive unwelcome advances, or just confusing awkward situations.
Drinking more moderately is also good for my physical health, greatly reduces the risk of accidental physical injury, and almost totally eliminates the risk of regrettable consensual sex, drinking moderately is good for many other reasons.
It is of course a matter of personal choice what is considered a reasonable risk. Some women may see more benefit in some risks, for example i like walking alone at night (so long as i am in familiar neighbourhoods), i’m not willing to give this up to avoid the very small risk of stranger rape. But I would never go home with a guy i’d just met, i don’t think that’s worth the risk, but other women may see more benefit in meeting new people and be more willing to take that risk. Neither of these risks is unreasonable, and cautiously avoiding either of these situations is also not unreasonable.
Getting so drunk that you pass out is something with such little benefit and so many other risks that it seems like something everyone should always avoid. It is definitely something i intend to avoid in future. Even so, this doesn’t excuse the aggressor even in this case. There’s not some finite amount of responsibility to go around. The aggressor is equally guilty regardless of how big a risk the victim was taking.
candy – Well, whoop-di-do, you’re taking precautions – so is every woman and girl alive. It is arrogant and patronising and naive to think otherwise. We’ll file your ideas – dress modestly, drink moderately and don’t walk around in unfamiliar areas next to ‘don’t trip over and land in rapist’s laps’ in the Great Book of Surviving Female in a Patriarchy.
Go ahead and take your precautions, no-one is trying to stop you – although bear in mind that there will be some people out there who don’t think your idea of dressing modestly is quite modest enough or that your moderate drinking is at all ok, and when they say that about you, we will stand up for you, too, and your rights to dress how you please and consume what levels of alcohol you like – and we are all taking some kind of precautions in our lives so don’t think you’re alone in hoping that this is somehow enough.
Not so long ago there was a case in the UK where a woman was mugged on the street and left for dead. While she was laying there dying another man came upon her and did he decide to help her? no, he decided to rape her. So, add that to your list of ‘rape avoidance techniques’ – dress modestly, don’t drink too much, don’t walk on the streets and for godsake, don’t start dying anywhere.
Please don’t try to argue that your precautions can prevent you or anyone else from the possibility of being raped or that someone who was raped didn’t take enough precautions – can you see how fucking offensive this is to people who have been raped? – because there is only one real way to stop someone’s penis or finger or broomstick from being stuffed inside your orifices against your will – doesn’t matter what you’re wearing or what time of night it is or whether you’re drunk, sober or in a coma – and that is if the person with the penis or the finger or the broomstick STOPS RAPING PEOPLE. And that, right there, is why we are concentrating our efforts on getting the message out that rapists need to stop raping, rapists are responsible for rape. Every time you argue that someone didn’t take enough precautions to prevent rape, that they should take some responsibility for being raped, you dilute the blame that rapists receive.
Take some time to read this post and think about it again before commenting, please. It is exhausting to make these arguments over and over and over again and so many of the aspects you are bringing up have already been covered.
You should read what *I* wrote, i said i DON’T take any specific precautions to prevent rape. The behaviours i choose not to engage in all also prevent other dangerous or otherwise aversive outcomes.
And yes, you don’t seem to be trying to stop me as such, but you seem to be trying to make me live in fear, i don’t like that. You also seem to be trying to make me feel guilty for taking any precautions. As if me staying sober means rapists will get off for raping someone else while they’re passed out
Now i do feel scared walking home tonight. I don’t like feeling that way. I don’t want to live in your paranoid world of a constant threat from the patriarchy and nothing i can do to defend myself.
There are things we can control and things we can’t. Just because there are things we can’t control (being mugged earlier, having a disability, being a child etc.) doesn’t mean we give up on the lot. It’s not useful or meaningful to conflate that.
You won’t accept any analogy for rape, but your conflate all rape in a meaninglessly homogenous monolithic entity. It is certainly all very bad, but it’s not all the same. Some are more avoidable than others, and it seems possible that the most avoidable forms are often the most common. Stranger rape is random and the most difficult to avoid, but also very rare.
“Date rape” is probably the most common form of rape, and possibly the most preventable, sobriety is a good start, being cautious around new partners etc. It’s hard to tell what tactics actually work though, because we’re barely even allowed to discuss it, let alone study it, any possible actions from potential victims to reduce the risk of this awful thing happening get shot down in a firestorm of retaliation about “blaming” the victim. But it isn’t blame, it’s just an attempt to take some reasonable non-imposing measures to prevent this awful thing happening (or prevent it happening again in the case of people who’ve already been victimised).
Do you have any actual evidence that “the patriarchy” is to blame? I see no grand conspiracy. To me, it seems like it’s often a lot more simple. There are some selfish people out there who rate their pleasure as a higher priority than other people’s suffering. We’re not an underclass living in a patriarchy we’re just people in an unfortunately imperfect world.
I guess there could be some specific empathy deficit in men seeing how much an unwanted sexual encounter can upset a woman, or in seeing when women want or do not want sex. Some education directed at potential offenders could be useful, yes.
But we don’t need to have just one tactic, no tactic is totally effective, the best results will be achievable by attacking the problem on all sides.
Also who says rape is “always” a conscious decision, often (not always, possibly not even the majority of the time, but often) the rapist is also affected by drugs or alcohol, which may cause him or her to do something he or she might normally find morally repugnant, by either making it harder to understand the victim’s non-consent or just making it harder to resist a very selfish action. Educating people (potential victims and potential aggressors) about the risks associated with drugs and alcohol seems like another good way to reduce the incidence of rape.
We don’t need to fear that taking a few reasonable measures to reduce the risk will lead to bruquas and gender-specific total liquor prohibition. There is no way to totally eliminate risk, any risk in life, it’s a matter of risk vs benefit. How much risk someone is willing to take and for what benefits is totally a matter of personal choice, as it should be.
Also, we need to stop conflating caution with blame. Maybe i don’t get out enough, but the only people i have ever see actually DO this are feminists crying out against the need for caution. I’ve never actually heard any form of law enforcement say that not taking maximum precaution made the victim somehow responsible for the crime.
“Suggesting that women take reasonable precautions which also have other health and safety benefits does not in any way excuse the aggressor when women choose not to take these precautions.”
It would be nice if that were true, but it isn’t. As long as we perceive certain behaviour from women as being “risky” when it comes to rape, then any time a woman is raped people will wonder what risks she was taking and what risks she could have avoided. You say if a woman doesn’t take the precautions you think are “reasonable”, then she is still not responsible if she is raped, but that’s really not how it works. There’ll always be an element of “well, sure, it’s awful and that rapist is a vile criminal…but did you really need to wear that short a skirt? Don’t you know drunk girls get raped? Isn’t it kind of fair that he thought you were into it since you’re such a slut most of the time?” As the first commenter on this post said, arguments like that are a slippery slope, because any “reasonable precaution” short of locking yourself in a panic room for the rest of your life is just an arbitrary line that makes no difference to whether or not you will be raped unless rapists stop raping people.
“As if me staying sober means rapists will get off for raping someone else while they’re passed out.”
No, but you continuing to suggest that it’s a woman’s responsibility to stay sober to avoid being raped DOES. It’s exactly the perpetuation of that attitude that results in rapists not being brought to court, or being acquitted, because the authorities, the judge or the jury decide that the victim didn’t do enough. This happens every day. You are contributing to it.
candy, I feel like you are not really willing to engage with the arguments here, but I’m going to pick out a few points.
You say you don’t see evidence of the patriarchy. Many don’t. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Twisty (of http://iblamethepatriarchy.com) would describe your opinions on this as, the scales have not yet fallen from your eyes. It’s not solely on other commenters to waste time convincing you that rape is rapists’ fault or that the patriarchy exists.
How peachy for you that you don’t feel you need to take precautions specifically to guard against rape. Some of the things you take precautions against are kind of on that slippery slope to rape though (unwanted advances? mugging?). I guess it’s useful that they coincide?
Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we lived in a world where, because people didn’t rape other people, you didn’t need to take any precautions? Why are actions and society not worth examining, if we want that world?
Your list of precautions you take to make your life better sound suspiciously close to judging other people for Not Doing What You Do. It’s pretty naive to assert that because getting blackout drunk isn’t that great for your health, people should just not do it. That’s really not much different for saying getting blackout drunk means you’re at higher risk for being raped by a man and it’s all your fault. The nature of alcohol is that it’s pretty easy to overdo! By accident as well! Ever had a friend sneakily buy you a double? Ever gone drinking when you were starving, or maybe you were on antibiotics and you forgot?
Others have said this, but it bears repeating. All of this talk of ‘taking precautions’ and ‘being responsible’ is a massive slap in the face for anyone who DID take precautions and WAS ‘responsible’, and a man violated their trust and raped them anyway. And for anyone who wasn’t ‘responsible’ by someone else’s arbitrary definition, it still doesn’t matter and they do not deserve your censure. All rape is the fault of the person who rapes.
You might choose to respond to my comment, you might not. If you do, I think the best thing you can do is take bluemilk’s advice and read a bit more widely on this issue. The feministing or the feminism 101 website might be a good place to start.
I read Thornhill and Palmer’s A Natural History of Rape, there we go, a whole book! It was a bit speculative, their theories were not 100% proven, but it’s the only thing i’ve read on the issue which has made a jot of sense. None of the feminist writing on the subject i have found so far has made the slightest bit of sense to me. But “Yes Means Yes” is currently in the post and i intend to read it when it arrives, maybe that will explain things a little better.
Someone on one of Twisty’s threads described the patriarchy as like one of those Magic Eye pictures. Once you see it, you can’t not see it.
Yeah, it’s ruined movies and tv for me! lol
The bottom line is that rape – which is always a conscious decision by the rapist – is seen as a natural hazard that women have to negotiate every second, minute, hour of their lives. It is like we have to guard against a disease – watch how you dress, be careful when and where you walk, don’t have eye contact etc etc in case you become infected. This disease – male privilege – is ignored, excused, accepted, even celebrated both by rapists and rape apologists. Unfortunately this disease also affects many men who are neither of these things in that it destroys their empathetic skills and renders them unable to relate to anyone who is not them: thus the male industrial complex ignores women’s day to day reality: that their whole lives, from birth to death, are spent trying to avoid infection.
I don’t get it, it seems like a lot of women WANT to have no control, i can’t relate to this. They seem to want to be totally helpless to do anything to prevent something awful happening, or even to reduce the risk.
It seems like if there was something i could have done to prevent something bad happening to me then i can make sure i do that in future, and that thing won’t happen again, or at least is far less likely to happen again, this would give me a sense of control.
If there was nothing i could have done (in the case of a lot of the examples you have given), or if whatever i could have done would be an unreasonable restriction on my life (e.g. never leaving house), it seems like that would be MORE scary?
Why do a lot of women seem to want to make all experiences of rape and assault MORE scary?
Um…because they ARE scary? Because being realistic about how helpless we were to prevent ourselves being raped, and are to prevent ourselves being raped again, is the only way to convince people that rape survivors shouldn’t be blamed for what happened and that we should all put the focus of rape prevention on stopping rapists from raping. Because I’ve tried tearing myself apart with guilt and shame over not being careful enough, and it didn’t stop a second guy from sexually abusing me or make either incident any better to get over.
Being in denial about my ability to protect myself from rape won’t stop me being raped, so I don’t really see the point in pretending that rape is less “scary”. Especially when the pretence curtails my and other women’s freedom to do whatever the hell we please, and increases the likelihood that when a woman is raped people will wonder what *she* could have done to prevent it.
I’m not saying rape’s not scary, i am sure it is, i just don’t see how having been able to prevent what happened makes in MORE unpleasant? I honestly don’t get it?
Isn’t not being in control of the situation the whole reason why it’s unpleasant? wouldn’t having some sense of at least a tiny bit of control over it make it less unpleasant and less traumatic?
Isn’t some sense of control better than none?
I’m not talking about whether you are or are not in any position to mitigate risk any more, i’m talking about why you don’t want to be able to mitigate the risk? That baffles me.
Are you worried that there being any sense of control gets confused with consent, or blurs the border with regrettable consensual sex?
Which brings me to the other things which concerns me about the current political agenda on rape, the idea that rape is pure violence and “not sex”. Rape does have something in common with sex, it is sex, if it wasn’t sex it would be just a violent assault, which generally seems to be less traumatic?
The myth than rape is “not about sex” is surely part of why some rapists rape. I wish i could find a link to the study, but i think when you ask guys if they are rapists, obviously almost none say yes, but if you ask them whether they’ve deliberately got a girl so drunk she couldn’t say no (or any other case of “rape by any other name”) a frighteningly high proportion say they have.
Surely one of the first lessons we need to teach these rapists, in order for the rapists to stop raping (as appears to be tactic #1 in preventing rape) is that being motivated by lust, doesn’t mean it’s not rape. Even if you do not intend to harm her, even if your only motive is lust, if she says no: that’s rape.
To me, what’s a lot “more scary” is the idea that I should take responsibility for not being raped, because as bluemilk has (repeatedly, exhaustively, and eloquently) pointed out, you can never take enough precautions. Putting the burden of prevention on me means making me think about the possibility of rape constantly, and take on the psychological strain of ensuring it doesn’t happen to me – which is in any case impossible.
Put the burden of responsibility where it belongs, on the rapist, and it’s Not My Problem. Rape becomes just another one of the many bad things that could, theoretically, happen to a person at any time: struck by lightning! cancer! car crash! mugging! Now, I don’t know about you, but I don’t go about my life oppressed by fear and anxiety over these things. It’s out of my hands. I assume that I’m going to make it to the end of the day, week, month, that I’ll go out and work and have fun and live my life and not get hurt; sure, I am aware of the possibility that bad things might happen, but it’s not worth worrying about. Why should rape fall into a different category?
This isn’t about playing helpless. We all live our lives in much the same way. We all want to feel in control. It’s ludicrous to think that we can control other people’s actions, though, and that’s what your “taking responsibility” seems to mean.
I don’t know, maybe i’m just a control freak. I like to control whatever i can, but – more importantly – I like to feel like i can control as much as possible.
I know i can’t reduce the risk by 100%, but i like to try and reduce it by the 50%, 10%, or even 1% which i can reduce it by while not missing out on anything i value in life.
the important bit is “while not missing out on anything i value in life”. I walk alone at night about 4 times a week, i know there is a small risk here. I like that i choose whether to take that risk. Acknowledging a small risk, and deciding to take that risk because it’s worth the benefit is empowering for me.
Taking a small risk is empowering, “can’t do anything, not worth trying” is dis-empowering, i don’t like that feeling, i can’t relate to why you embrace it.
Cancer – now you mention it – is another good reason to moderate one’s drinking. Trying to totally avoid cancer – or rape – will ruin one’s life. But something which increases the risk of BOTH those terrible things – as excessive drinking will – is surely something worth avoiding?
And i would do the same with lightning strikes, i wouldn’t carry an umbrella in a storm…. though i do like to walk in the rain if there is no lightning TOO close.
This is one of the most important building blocks of rape culture. Incidents of rape scare people, and they want to distance themselves from the possibility of it happening to them, or get some sense that they can control whether it happens to them. Thus it is pacifying to many people to go along with the idea that rape only happens to certain kinds of women – blind drunk women, women who are so slutty they are deemed to be in a constant state of consent, women who don’t dress according to your definition of a modest dress code.
Thus we valorise a particular way of performing femininity, so as not to be “that woman” – that drunk, slutty, up at all hours, spending time with men woman – and flag ourself a “good girl” under patriarchal norms. Problem is, it doesn’t work. B Ask the 80 year old woman raped in her bed. But the narrative of rape culture is that it will work.
[Apols for length]
Long time reader, first-time (or at least at most third time?) commenter here. Candy, I want to address your points individually from your longer comment above, if I may?
You say that choosing not to engage in certain “behaviours” also prevents other dangerous outcomes – I wonder which kinds of behaviours prevent, say, mugging or murder? Usually when someone is, say, murdered, it is primarily because someone wants to murder (them). We don’t categorise their previous ‘aliveness’ as a behaviour which might end in their murder, because that would be absurd.
I can’t think of many blogs on the internet which are less about promoting the idea of living in fear than this one. Recognising a problem, and the realities of that problem, is not promoting living in fear – it is promoting the truthful recognition of a situation, and thinking about how we can work towards changing that situation. For the record, I think it is great if you don’t live in fear, but I think it’s also quite unpleasant to imply that those who do are somehow silly or paranoid. And no-one is trying to make you feel guilty for “taking precautions”. I haven’t seen anyone call you out on that – people are calling you out on where you are situating blame in the discourse surrounding rape and rape apologia.
As others have said, you are free to reject the idea that we live in a patriarchy but here on an explicitly feminist site that is, to say the least, an unusual view. You don’t want to live in a “paranoid world” with a “constant threat from the patriarchy” (as if that’s actually how most of us view our world anyway)? That’s fine – no-one here is asking you to (or indeed could possibly force you to even if they wanted).
In life there are absolutely things we can control and things we can’t. Rapists raping is not something we can control, unfortunately – would that it were. But what it is is something we can react to – socially and politically – by, for example, promoting the message “stop raping” rather than “prevent rape”. I’m simplifying, but I hope that makes my point clear.
Asking rapists to stop raping, and asking apologists to stop rape apologia, is not conflating rape into a homogenous monolith. Indeed Blue Milk’s varied examples of how and when rape(s) occurs goes against the grain of this argument. Rape is avoidable by reducing the number of rapists in society – not by any other means. As you’ve hinted at earlier on – if the rapist in the room hasn’t honed in on you s/he is still most likely going to rape somebody, because s/he *is a rapist*.
I would also really love for you to talk to some people who have been date raped (let’s lose the quotation marks) and see how preventable they thought it was. Plenty of people who have been raped have been “cautious around new partners” – or even old ones, friends, colleagues, husbands, relatives etc etc etc whom they have known for years. What’s your statute of limitations on how cautious you have to be? How long you’ve known someone? How they’ve behaved towards you in the past? It’s hard to tell which “tactics” work, because this isn’t a football game, this is an end game, where the only goal is the successful rape of the person targeted.
Re. the patriarchy – see my earlier point. Re. men having a specific empathy deficit? Men are raped, women sexually assault. This is not about gender. And your point about educating potential offenders? Brilliant – I would love to see your plans for how we go about identifying *them*.
As for the idea that some (poor ickle) rapists rape because they’re under the influence? That’s pretty offensive, and it shouldn’t really even need to be addressed. The idea of rape does not magically come to someone when they are drunk or high – it doesn’t have to, because rape culture is all around us even when we are stone cold sober ‘n’ straight.
Rape is not a “risk”, or some kind of naturally occurring hazard, as others have mentioned. It is a violent, assault-based *crime*. Let’s treat crime like crime.
As for your last point regarding law enforcement? Wow. Maybe read the stats on prosecutions for rape, their numbers, their success, and why they are dropped.
Feminists aren’t crying out against the need for “caution” – and would we be living in this paranoid fear of the patriarchy if we were? (That was a joke, by the way). Feminists are crying out for an end to victim-blaming, slut-shaming, rape apologia and rape culture.
It blows my mind how *anyone* would even want to argue against this.
[Apols for length]
Two, in both cases yes, if they’d stayed sober it probably wouldn’t have happened.
Maybe, if they’d avoided it, it would have happened to someone else, maybe even someone else at the same event that same night, but i don’t think that’s within the sphere of their responsibility. I’d say that’s a reasonable guilt to bare for not reporting a rape if the attacker then goes on to attack another, but not for making yourself a less easy target.
Quotation marks maybe should have been only around “date”, i didn’t mean to belittle it, i just wasn’t sure what the right term for it was. It’s not really “intimate partner rape” because neither of them new the guy well, and it’s not quite “acquaintance rape” because the situation was disconcertingly romantic.
“And your point about educating potential offenders? Brilliant – I would love to see your plans for how we go about identifying *them*.” If not through education then how do we do the “stop the rapists” side of your lob-sided plan? We don’t need to do something targeted, just educate everyone in school sex ed, public service announcements, what *is* the plan for that? Yelling at each other that they should just not do it definitely doesn’t help.
“As for the idea that some (poor ickle) rapists rape because they’re under the influence? That’s pretty offensive…. The idea of rape does not magically come to someone when they are drunk or high … It is a violent, assault-based *crime*. Let’s treat crime like crime.”
A large number of other crimes, particularly violent crimes, are committed by intoxicated people, everything from long-term domestic violence to bar brawls over meaningless arguments. Plenty of people probably have the thought of rape, or been seriously tempted to do it, but resist the urge. It is much harder to resist the urge to do something wrong when you are drunk.
As for the reasons cases are dropped i would say it’s mainly lack of evidence? Not “victim-blaming, slut-shaming, rape apologia and rape culture”. We have an innocent until proven guilty justice system, no matter the attitudes of people involved rape is difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt.
ok, i give up, please delete everything
When a house is robbed, we don’t wonder whether or not the owner ‘took reasonable precautions’ – like getting an alarm system. We blame the robber. But maybe the house was in an unsafe neighborhood. Maybe the owners couldn’t afford an alarm system…
Cadium – by your definition, a vagina* is a liability, a risk factor. A fact of women’s biology may only be seen as a liability in a patriarchal society. And vaginas live in unsafe neighborhoods. Sometimes because they don’t have money to live elsewhere. Are these vaginas more responsible for their rapes than upper-class vaginas?
People without vaginas also get raped, and their rapes are no less horrific, so I use the word to make a point, not because I believe that a vagina makes a woman, that gender is biological, or that only biological females may occupy the social category ‘women.’
Of course living in a poor neighbourhood does not make you “responsible” for being raped, like i said a lot of the time there genuinely isn’t something reasonable that could have been done to avoid it. sometimes there is nothing at all which could be done to avoid it, such as if the victim was targeted because they were a child, you cannot avoid being a child. sometimes there was nothing which could be done which would not curb having a full and meaningful life, we obviously can’t reasonably expect people to stay home with the doors locked all day. But that doesn’t mean we should give up on the few things we can reasonably attempt to control – like the way we use or abuse alcohol.
Candy, I think I get where you’re coming from. I get the appeal of the idea that, by doing something, or even a lot of somethings, you can keep yourself safe from rapists. The problem is that it isn’t true. I went through a lengthy phase after I was raped of total paranoia. I cut my hair so that it couldn’t be used as a handle, wouldn’t wear necklaces, wouldn’t go to the store by myself, wouldn’t be alone in my own home. The insatiable desire to safeguard myself from violence and tragedy consumes my life. THAT is a paranoid world to live in. Understanding that anyone, particularly your closest friends and family members, are potential rapists is the pretty version of the real world we really live in. That is a shocking, unpleasant thought, but it’s an important one because it is foundational to turning the tables and reclaiming our lives and our dignity. I can’t protect myself from rape as an individual, but I can work with the activists around me to fight against rape on a global scale. I can take control back through politics, through education, through blogs like this one. I realize that it is hard to recognize what is going on here from the outside. I was three years post-attack before all the pieces really started to click together for me. And, yeah, it can be hard to talk to many feminists, to have an informative, open conversation, because while you’re just speaking hypothetically, a lot of us are survivors of rape, assault, child abuse, etc, and we’re tired of being polite and understanding while we hash through the same triggery, vile material over and over. We want to stop reliving the past, arguing with people who are fortunate enough to not know what we’re talking about and focus our energies on FIXING this shit. This is what empowerment looks like. So if you don’t understand or don’t agree, you know, check first before just diving into a conversation like this. Make sure you aren’t dealing with a survivor who may not be up to the conversation…particularly in a open forum situation like this, the odds are good that some of your readers aren’t speaking theoretically. And there’s so much great information out there. It is hard to look at a random person on the Internet as genuinely just wanting information and not trolling when they could get their answers at the library or online without potentially derailing anyone’s recovery process.
I love your comment.
thanks 🙂
do you see the assumption you are making about me?
Candy: “I’m not saying rape’s not scary, i am sure it is…”
I actually put the time into reading everything you’ve written on this thread, and this is the first time you’ve said a thing that even hinted at the possibility that you maybe might have some personal experience with rape. I will not have this conversation with you, because if you are a survivor you are obviously not at a place in your life where you are ready to discuss your experience and I do not want to be drawn into a conversation where we all show off our scars and argue over who has had it the worst in life. If you’re a survivor whose healing path looks different from mine, best wishes to you, no judgment, no hard feelings, wholeness is not one-size-fits-all. You should realize, though, that it is a bit late in the game to play the personal experience card in this particular debate, four days after blue milk created this post in direct response to you. Again, I am not going to be drawn in to a debate over what constitutes survivorship and whether or not you have the right to consider yourself a survivor, because those conversations are harmful and destructive to everyone involved. However, there are a lot of trolls out there who seek out blogs like this one and we can’t put time and energy into arguing every point we make with every person who came along on the off-chance that one of them might be genuine.
I have not and will not “play the personal experience card”. This is not a “game” late in said game or otherwise.
My point was just that you should not make assumptions about the experience of people you do not know. I am grateful for you not asking directly.
Just on principle, i have avoided saying anything either way, I always deleted anything too personal about myself or those close to me before i hit “post comment”, which i am glad of because it seems i am unable to delete anything now, and nothing will be deleted on request.
I didn’t mean “i’m sure it is” from a point of view of personal experience though, or i would have deleted that too, i just meant it more rhetorically in that we wouldn’t even be having this heated conversation if rape wasn’t something intensely unpleasant.
this too please, both of them
Apologies in advance, this is going to be a very long comment, I’ve been thinking about this for a while. I’ve got 5 main points that I would like to make.
1.) From the National Centre for victims of crime website linked to in the post “All the way – gray rape and third base”, we find out that in 77% of rape cases, the rapist was known to the victim. This means that it is the vast majority of rape, and we need to stop calling it “acquaintance” or “date” or “grey” rape, because what it is is rape.
2.) To all the people wondering why telling people (women) to stay safe is a bad idea – it often doesn’t work, and living in a culture that tells women to take precautions against rape means that women (and men, and children) who get raped are then automatically scrutinised to see if they took the “appropriate precautions”. I don’t know if trial by jury works the same in other countries, but here in the UK the phrase used is “beyond reasonable doubt”. So all the lawyer representing the rapist has to do is say “He didn’t know she hadn’t consented because (pick any rape apology, e.g. she was dressed provocatively, she had been flirting with him etc.)” and hey presto, reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury – what if he really didn’t know she hadn’t consented?
3.) Yes, people can tell if the person they want to have sex with has consented or not. Being too drunk to say no, lying there blankly, not fighting back – does anybody really, truly think this is consent? (And I would like to mention again the statistic that 77% of rapes involve the rapist knowing the victim.) The excuse that the rapist didn’t know that the victim hadn’t consented is just that – an excuse.
4.) We need to move away from the current system of telling people (women) to prevent rape for the simple fact that it isn’t working. From the RAINN website, 60% of rapes are not reported, and of those that are, 50.8% result in an arrest. Of the arrests, there is an 80% chance of prosecution. Of the prosecutions, there is a 58% chance of conviction, and of the convictions there is a 69% chance of jail time. Crunching all these numbers, we find that only 6% of rapists ever spend time in jail. We need to start telling people not to rape, believing rape victims, and prosecuting and jailing rapists,
5.) Enthusiastic consent can be sexy. Most people seem to imagine a man and a woman sitting on a couch, while the man holds a list and recites in a precise monotone “May I kiss you? May I touch your left breast?” etc, whereas it can be more like a couple making out on a couch, while the man asks “Do you like that? Is that nice? Do you want to go further?” as the woman enthusiastically replies with “Yes!” each time. The end result is a mutually satisfying sexual encounter that both parties have consented to.
I definitely like the idea of enthusiastic consent. If no one said “no” when they meant “yes”, no one would ever have that excuse that they misunderstood. It’s also an important detail of the “telling rapists not to rape”, we can’t just say “don’t rape” very often they may not even see that what they did was wrong “but she didn’t say no, she didn’t say anything”.
I’m actually a bit unsettled that the figure is as low as 77%, that puts rather more incidents of rape than i expected outside my sphere of what i am willing to try to control, i would expect it to be more like 95%, i hear of rape by strangers so rarely, but i hear that 1 in 4 women get raped, i assumed all the ones i didn’t hear of must have been people the victim knew. Was that figure global? does it include all the places where stranger rape is somewhat epidemic, like The Congo?
Oh heavens woman, no one has ever said the patriarchy is a “conspiracy”. It’s a way of behaving embedded in culture.
No one says it outright, and that may not be the way you see it, but i start to get that feeling when i talk to some more extreme feminists some times, they seem to think the men all have secret meetings on how to dominate women, they make it sound like rape is point 1 on a written secret agenda somewhere.
On the contrary, most feminists are trying desperately to make the point that lessons on dominating women are made very, very publicly. In mainstream movies, in pop songs, in highly praised and awarded novels by Norman Mailer and Philip Roth, in respectable scholarly institutions ( http://hoydenabouttown.com/20091109.6944/university-colleges-nurturing-a-rape-culture None of the men involved were ever officially disciplined by the university). In Papal edits, for goodness sake, is it possible to get more public than that? No secret written agenda needed: there are facebook pages.
secret is maybe not quite the right word, they just seem to think it is more organised and planned than seems plausible
well get rid of this too, vague or not it’s more than i wanted to say
Cadmium Candy – your comments are getting very repetitive so I’m deleting some.. we’ve already long since covered the idea that anyone is promoting heavy drinking and that you need to save us all from this terrible mistake. We’ve also covered the reasons why we disagree with your heavy emphasis on this as some sort of rape prevention strategy. Enough!
Please use the space here to comment wisely, think about what people are saying in response to your arguments and take some time to re-evaluate your own arguments. I don’t see anything worthwhile in circular discussions.
Fine, i’d really prefer you got rid of the lot, if you won’t do that at least abbreviate the name to “Candy” or “Cd” or “CC” or “anon.”
No problem, will change your comment nickname.
thanks 🙂
sorry to cause such a fuss, just this is an emotionally intense issue – as i guess it is for all humans – i have trouble leaving it alone once i’ve started on it, i can’t stop picking at it.
My Rape CV :
position:
subservient / child / physically weaker/ scared
Background:
Mother left home: 6 sisters and one brother older remained with our dad
Vulnerable – left to own devices / latch key kid etc.. dad ( sole parent ) working all the time.
Previous background Mother : ‘entertaining men ‘ whilst dad at work – all called ‘uncle wotnot’ – vibes of sex and sexuality, stockings, fishnets and flirting – common feeling from Mother.
Sexual Abuse:
Brother – once found him on top of me in my sleep when I was aged 8 ( he 14 years ) – told no one
GP – visited on my own aged 12 – told no one
Local man ( neighbour )
How: In a van aged 12 – he flirted offered cigarette – i smoked it and liked the attention – sexual activity occured in van – I was asked how old I was , I pretended I was 16 .. I looked physically like i was 12 however. – told no one
Rape no 1 = aged 14
How= asking directions of 3 boys – London tube station – one ‘chatted me up’ – the others giggling.. the one chatting me up now asks me to come back to his mum’s.. ( Mum = OK ) so i go.. – hormones and beginnings of flirting with boys had started already. ( boys= i would have liked to been my boyfriend ) all three boys rape me.
told no one – pregnant at 14 – social worker helped me get abortion – told only estranged mum – dad still does not know. – fell out of school taunts from other girls at ‘rape gossip’.
met boy 15 had relationship – fell pregnant ( hormonal need to replace with another feotus ) moved in – – abusive physically – threatened to get baby taken off me from social workers if I left him .. was abused for 4 years till i reached 18 and finally left ( = I am adult and old enough to care for baby alone.
Rape no 2 – 10 = baby’s father – whenver I was anti anything he wanted.
-told my ( late ) sister – she threatened in a letter and all rapes stopped after this. – he got new girlfreind and moved on. I left went ‘home to dad’s for some time – and fought a custody battle for care and control of our child. he dropped case to ‘access only’. I WON!! and was free !!
rape no 11 = Stranger = in street
How = evening after court case – visited a friend to let her know, mused over proceedings and start of new life had ONE glass of wine at freinds.. left to go home to dad’s I was 19. Was dragged into my local churchyard cemetry – raped everywhere a woman can be raped.- was menstruating and am catholic. – reported to a freind – and police – following day continued to look after my child. – depression set in.
rape no 12 = daughters father heard about rape in newspaper = offered me option to come back home – I stayed in seperate room in our previous home and him in the main bedroom. – awoke to see him with knife at my throat whilst my daughter slept besides me. – stirring and almost waking up. I ‘let him finish ‘ – this continued until he eventaully got new flat ( housing department supported – under ‘breakdown of relationship’ ). adult daughter now has ‘ unknown’ fear of knives or anything pointed. – ( I know)
told no one – called police for his beating me up and they came for that but did not tell about the other rapes ‘within marriage ‘ ( common law marriage )
rapes continued: stranged – ex partner – now visiting with key in back door – rapes continue until he finds new parter – i stop myself in the act of suicide ( wrist cutting ) as i couldn;t bear the rapes any longer – was relived he had new partner.
go to college – return to education – met nice man year later – gentle, nice, not harsh in any way.. quite effeminate to some degree. – i feel ok.. but cant have sex easily. nor manage seeing or feeling sperm in or on my skin. ( I apologise ) – explore sexuality. feel guilty..love him, but,. eventaully decide i must be lesbian and leave him.
Have lesbain life for next 14 years. – begun to get abused ( physically by two female partners ) – evenatually – stopped seeing women. begin to explorr sexuality and feelings for my ex – ( the nice one ) and feel like I might still have feelings for men.. ( nice ones )
I’m educated and working , professional woman now!! looking good! man on train comes in my carriage on way to work – begins masturbating. – I call police ( when im safe ) he’s done this to 14 other women and teenage girls on the same train line. – I get all other rapes and abuses triggered. and now cannot leave the house. – give up work. ( made up some other health excuse and am on welfare sickness benefits.
met another man ( thought was nice ) moved in 4 years – ok for while.. wants me to explore sexuality with him ( i do ) – he then makes up sole profile and begins to meet men for sex. ( I find out on pc ) – break up of relationship. – now threatened with homelessness. -he becomes abusive. – i will not go away nore keep his ‘secret’ ( huge inheritance coming his way is all is good ) i realise he was Gay all along and needed me to keep his single man alone ‘virtue’ with his family in order to get inheritance.
I have to leave and live in a women’s refuge. ( im now a website designer and actually building a website on domestic abuse !! ) another nice man comes along and supports me online. Gives funds to the campaign headquarters ( ‘me in my room at the refuge’ ) and we become freinds. he is gentle and warm and ncie and not effeminate in any way ). he is mild mannered and needs to be treated gently too as he was abused. we have spent 4 years together – he moved closer to me ( 200 miles closer ) and waited for me to come out of the refuge and begin trusting him, i eventually did. I get around the ‘sperm thing’ and he supports me .. We are getting married this year. I am now 46 years old.
My daughters father is in contact with her and I have seen him now too. ) I still have told only my partner and a couple of close female freinds. my grandchildren are well looked after, but say ‘ oh nanny your always so worried about everything – even when we play out )
My Rape CV ends with a hopeful ending. Hope…. that nothing more happens to me, but none of this was MY fault in ANY WAY.. it is as the blog mistress states. ‘a rape culture that has to change ‘ .
What’s up friends, good article and fastidious urging commented here, I am truly enjoying by these.
10 years later and this suite of articles are still the actual best.